Interesting open letter concerning the lead shot/ammunition ban

[timbrayford]

What? Apologise because we have exposed you as being wrong and out of your intellectual depth on the subject matter of the thread? Representing a body that has betrayed the interests of its members and which brushed aside well reasoned argument that was contrary to the views of the leadership of that body? Maybe you think I should apologise for our exposure of you and your friend as bullies who seek to silence those who do not agree with you by means of threat and passive aggressive insinuation as to their suitability to hold firearms? We did nothing. You did all of this on your own. If we had just thuggishly piled in on you and Heym, I reckon the thread would have been killed by the moderator, or I would have been told to wind my neck in.
I suspect the moderator has the wisdom to know the difference between debate and whatever you choose to call your contributions, hence the thread still runs.
No Sir. I will not be apologising today. Today I am admiring my garden, enjoying the company of my dog and smoking a large and tasty cigar at the back of a flowerbed. Later I shall barbecue some venison and some duck for my family, all killed cleanly and humanely and legally with lead.
In the meantime, while I am thus engaged, if you are interested in apologies, why not ask your masters at Marford Mill to apologise to the shooting community for betraying them through a well crafted blend of intellectual negligence, incompetence and skulduggery.
Henry Clay warhawk Lonsdale. I recommend it. It is a thumper.

Precisely , those who have a different opinion to BASC might find themselves subject to ridicule and bullying, meanwhile division in our ranks represents a massive success for Packham, Wild Justice and their chums on the LAG.
Have no lessons been learnt from the Hunting Act and the bans on pistols and semi auto centrefires?

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

What? Apologise because we have exposed you as being wrong and out of your intellectual depth on the subject matter of the thread? Representing a body that has betrayed the interests of its members and which brushed aside well reasoned argument that was contrary to the views of the leadership of that body? Maybe you think I should apologise for our exposure of you and your friend as bullies who seek to silence those who do not agree with you by means of threat and passive aggressive insinuation as to their suitability to hold firearms? We did nothing. You did all of this on your own. If we had just thuggishly piled in on you and Heym, I reckon the thread would have been killed by the moderator, or I would have been told to wind my neck in.
I suspect the moderator has the wisdom to know the difference between debate and whatever you choose to call your contributions, hence the thread still runs.
No Sir. I will not be apologising today. Today I am admiring my garden, enjoying the company of my dog and smoking a large and tasty cigar at the back of a flowerbed. Later I shall barbecue some venison and some duck for my family, all killed cleanly and humanely and legally with lead.
In the meantime, while I am thus engaged, if you are interested in apologies, why not ask your masters at Marford Mill to apologise to the shooting community for betraying them through a well crafted blend of intellectual negligence, incompetence and skulduggery.
Henry Clay warhawk Lonsdale. I recommend it. It is a thumper.

Beginning to wonder if Heym is a copper trader.

we are dealing with a fanatic to whom the truth and facts are entirely irrelevant, unless he thinks it is in his favour.

I am now convinced his real name is Hu Flung Dung and he lives in Beijing. The joke is on us...we have been completely taken in by a fictional forum member. He must be wetting himself.

Given the comments above I think an apology to Heym is in order.

 

[VSS]

Precisely , those who have a different opinion to BASC might find themselves subject to ridicule and bullying, meanwhile division in our ranks represents a massive success for Packham, Wild Justice and their chums on the LAG.
Have no lessons been learnt from the Hunting Act and the bans on pistols and semi auto centrefires?

The only thing to be learnt from those previous curtailments of hunting / shooting sports activities is that the various sectors within the fieldsports community are quite happy to throw other sectors under the bus in defence of their own particular pursuit.

And on that note, this is a stalking forum, so why are we getting so hot under the collar about lead ammo? All the major players in the deer management game (FE etc) are already successfully using non-lead ammo, and have been for some time, as are many of the larger sporting estates, so it clearly works. I don't know the stats, but given the number of deer culled annually by FE and it's Scottish equivalent, it would probably be a reasonably guess to say that the majority of deer culled in the UK are already being shot with non-lead ammo. So where's the issue?

Personally, I'm not fussed either way. If and when lead goes I'll just feed my rifle with something else and not lose any sleep over it.

I'm sure there are other dedicated forums available on which the shotgun shooters could vent their spleens.

 

[Utectok]

Some people seem to live in a different world from me, where lead is good for you and no doubt smoking helps you’re lungs and driving at 100mph is safer than 30mph…. Give me strength…….
Granted lead is the best ballistically but there are some drawbacks worth considering …???

 

[Spear Chucker]

Given the comments above I think an apology to Heym is in order.

Apparently humour is to be banned as well as lead. What a sad little world you must inhabit.

 

[timbrayford]

The only thing to be learnt from those previous curtailments of hunting / shooting sports activities is that the various sectors within the fieldsports community are quite happy to throw other sectors under the bus in defence of their own particular pursuit.

And on that note, this is a stalking forum, so why are we getting so hot under the collar about lead ammo? All the major players in the deer management game (FE etc) are already successfully using non-lead ammo, and have been for some time, as are many of the larger sporting estates, so it clearly works. I don't know the stats, but given the number of deer culled annually by FE and it's Scottish equivalent, it would probably be a reasonably guess to say that the majority of deer culled in the UK are already being shot with non-lead ammo. So where's the issue?

Personally, I'm not fussed either way. If and when lead goes I'll just feed my rifle with something else and not lose any sleep over it.

I'm sure there are other dedicated forums available on which the shotgun shooters could vent their spleens.

Oh yes, as far as the c/f stuff goes I stopped using lead 18 months/ 2 years ago, but that's a personal choice based on availability, I load my own, and have satisfactory ballistic performance from the TTSX.
That said, I don't see any good reason why my choices should be forced upon anyone else, let alone by statute of law.
We either stand together or fall divided, simple observation of posts on SD and other social media reveals that BASC's stance appears to be creating deep divisions within the shooting community or so it would appear.

 

[Spear Chucker]

The only thing to be learnt from those previous curtailments of hunting / shooting sports activities is that the various sectors within the fieldsports community are quite happy to throw other sectors under the bus in defence of their own particular pursuit.

And on that note, this is a stalking forum, so why are we getting so hot under the collar about lead ammo? All the major players in the deer management game (FE etc) are already successfully using non-lead ammo, and have been for some time, as are many of the larger sporting estates, so it clearly works. I don't know the stats, but given the number of deer culled annually by FE and it's Scottish equivalent, it would probably be a reasonably guess to say that the majority of deer culled in the UK are already being shot with non-lead ammo. So where's the issue?

Personally, I'm not fussed either way. If and when lead goes I'll just feed my rifle with something else and not lose any sleep over it.

I'm sure there are other dedicated forums available on which the shotgun shooters could vent their spleens.

Not my view, but you no doubt hold it for good reason. I salute you and beg to be allowed to think differently.

 

[timbrayford]

Some people seem to live in a different world from me, where lead is good for you and no doubt smoking helps you’re lungs and driving at 100mph is safer than 30mph…. Give me strength…….
Granted lead is the best ballistically but there are some drawbacks worth considering …???

Packham? Swift ? BASC? Wouldn't it be best for the shooting community if this lot would clear off and amuse themselves elsewhere?

 

[Spear Chucker]

Oh yes, as far as the c/f stuff goes I stopped using lead 18 months/ 2 years ago, but that's a personal choice based on availability, I load my own, and satisfactory ballistic performance.
That said, I don't see any good reason why my choices should be forced upon anyone else, let alone by statute of law.
We either stand together or fall divided, simple observation of posts on SD and other social media reveals that BASC's stance appears to be creating deep divisions within the shooting community or so it would appear.

Thank the Good Lord for intelligent people. What a refreshing post.

 

[Spear Chucker]

Packham? Swift ? BASC? Wouldn't it be best for shooting community if this lot would clear off and amuse themselves elsewhere?

Well said Sir.

 

[Utectok]

“There is no known safe level of lead exposure, especially for children, as even low levels can have harmful effects. While the severity of symptoms varies, blood lead levels above 5-10 μg/dL can cause developmental and neurological problems in children. In adults, levels above 40 μg/dL can lead to various health issues, including hypertension, nerve damage, and kidney problems.” Just in case anyone was wondering

 

[Chris Richardson]

Packham? Swift ? BASC? Wouldn't it be best for the shooting community if this lot would clear off and amuse themselves elsewhere?

I’d be more comfortable with packham than basc

 

[Spear Chucker]

“There is no known safe level of lead exposure, especially for children, as even low levels can have harmful effects. While the severity of symptoms varies, blood lead levels above 5-10 μg/dL can cause developmental and neurological problems in children. In adults, levels above 40 μg/dL can lead to various health issues, including hypertension, nerve damage, and kidney problems.” Just in case anyone was wondering

Agreed, but this is not representative of the effects of occasional ingestion of solid metallic pure lead shot, which usuallypasses through. More dangerous naturally occurring forms of lead, and artificially introduced forms are of greater concern.

 

[Ruger#1]

Given the comments above I think an apology to Heym is in order.

Rather than a sincere request I consider your repeated posts for an apology to someone who is more than capable of speaking for himself as just the latest in a series of posts to deflect from the issues being discussed.

On the subject of apologies
I have yet to receive one from yourself regarding wrongful accusations that you made on another forum ,perhaps focus more on your own issues regarding apologies rather than take on the responsibility of extracting apologies from others for fear of being labelled a hypocrite.
Of more relevance however is that shouldn’t you be apologising for the personal lack of initiative shown regarding the defence of the continued use of lead shot in your posts as per BASC policy and are we now going to continue to witness a lack of effort in ensuring a fair approach to the subject of lead ammunition use now that legislation supporting your personal crusade to justify the cessation of lead ammunition use appears to be in the pipeline.

 

[timbrayford]

“There is no known safe level of lead exposure, especially for children, as even low levels can have harmful effects. While the severity of symptoms varies, blood lead levels above 5-10 μg/dL can cause developmental and neurological problems in children. In adults, levels above 40 μg/dL can lead to various health issues, including hypertension, nerve damage, and kidney problems.” Just in case anyone was wondering

No known safe level, but as individuals there clearly is one, the operative word being "known" not "is" , but surely that makes having a personal choice on consuming lead shot game all the more pertinent?

 

[timbrayford]

I’d be more comfortable with packham than basc

At least Packham is open about opposing shooting live quarry, as opposed to some on here!

 

[Utectok]

Agreed, but this is not representative of the effects of occasional ingestion of solid metallic pure lead shot, which usuallypasses through. More dangerous naturally occurring forms of lead, and artificially introduced forms are of greater concern.

Ehh there is “no known safe level?” Thats not “sometimes a bit of lead ingested is ok?”

 

[Chris Richardson]

At least Packham is open about opposing shooting live quarry, as opposed to some on here!

That’s it you know what you’re dealing with with him

 

[Ruger#1]

Ehh there is “no known safe level?” Thats not “sometimes a bit of lead ingested is ok?”

I’d imagine any level of lead shot ingestion that didn’t result in a presence in the blood stream could be considered of negligible importance.Perhaps a screening programme of those consuming lead shot game in the uk would go some way to clarifying whether lead shot ingestion could be considered a problem and the results put into context with other dietary related issues.

 

[VSS]

I’d imagine any level of lead shot ingestion that didn’t result in a presence in the blood stream could be considered of negligible importance.Perhaps a screening programme of those consuming lead shot game in the uk would go some way to clarifying whether lead shot ingestion could be considered a problem and the results put into context with other dietary related issues.

I should think that, amongst the thousands of members of this site, there are some with health issues. In fact I know there are. Probably contributing to this thread, too.
It would indeed be interesting to undertake some kind of screening program among regular consumers of lead shot game, and also study any underlying health issues that they have which could potentially be linked to that.

About five years ago, after a lifetime of extremely good health on the whole (just a few relatively minor niggles over the years), I developed a debilitating degenerative autoimmune condition. It's not good. I'm pretty lucky not to be wheelchair bound by this stage.

A quick Google search quickly throws up a link between lead poisoning and the increased risk of developing autoimmune diseases. I have eaten lead shot game all my life.
Another Google search throws up a link between organophosphate poisoning and the increased risk of developing autoimmune diseases. I have been a sheep farmer all my life.
Another Google search throws up a link between antibiotic use and the increased risk of developing autoimmune diseases. At one time I was given a prolonged course of high dose antibiotics to treat prostatitis.
And so on.......