John muir trust article

[The Singing Stalker]

I came across this, think it was on Facebook, haven’t read it all myself, yet.
But a little something for you if you are bored.
Note, it is about a 40 minute read.

John Muir Trust fence, Schiehallion - Away with the Fairies

JMT “nature restoration” project is taking place shortly on Schiehallion Highland Perthshire. We need to stop this project now as well as protect the mountain.

away-with-the-fairies.co.uk

 

[Cootmeurer]

Quite the long read indeed. Seems it could be shorter if the author didn’t keep repeating.

I’d be interested to hear @Mungo s take on this.

 

[Mungo]

Quite the long read indeed. Seems it could be shorter if the author didn’t keep repeating.

I’d be interested to hear @Mungo s take on this.

I’m surprised JMT have the money to go through with it! They’re in severe institutional disarray.

With regard to whether it’s a good idea… I’m not really fussed. The hill probably had some sort of montane scrub on it historically, and it is very likely much more bare than its natural state. I personally think it would look better with some growth on it - it does currently look very bleak.

A lot of this is a subjective aesthetic argument. There are those who feel very strongly the current appearance of these hills should be preserved, for historical and cultural reasons. I am not one of these - I think they would look a lot better if they looked more like the hills of Scandinavia or Maine.

Given the strength of feeling on both sides, people planning to do habitat restoration in highly visible places like this should really make every effort to consult with neighbors and be very sensitive to people’s sincerely held views. JMT has a terrible reputation for completely ignoring other people’s opinions, and charging ahead with a very arrogant, self righteous attitude. It’s very much ‘we know best, and all who disagree are fools and knaves’.

As a counterpoint, I’m involved in a very similar project elsewhere, but here the landowner has taken great care to consult, explain and build consensus. There have been adjustments to the plan in response to input from neighbors and the public. It’s now going ahead, with broad support. It will have a dramatic effect on a highly visible area.

As with so many issues, it comes down to making sure you get the messaging right and making sure people feel heard.

 

[countrryboy]

Mungo will it actually make any difference for biodiversity or bird/mammal populations?
Will u get many extra birds or mammals up there because its scrubby rather than just heather?
Must admit a monoculture of rank heather has very little ecological value for much.

Id imagine it will be so exposed and cold very few animals could live up there anyway.
And wot can tolerarate it are already there.
But i imagine the hills will be a bit off a desert as they are and have very little living on them now anyway due to predation and crap management.
Not like its a grouse moor with a good mix of yoing and old heather as well as the other flora u get in 1st few years after burning.

1 thing i never get about condervation in uk they never try to save wot we have.
Always trying to change or reintroduce something.
U hardly hear much in normal press about trying to save scottish wildcats despite them being 1 off the rarest cats in the world.
Really should be massive PR/Tv appeals for them.
Same with caper.
See a bit about red squirrels but i reckon they wont last that long, another 20 yrs reds will really be struggling big time. U see how quick the greys have colonised s scot, if/when the engli sh greys start spreading squirel pox into the scottish central belt greys that really knocks the reds back quick.

Even with heather moorland, i think 95% off the worlds heather moorland is in uk.
And yet all we want to do is change it to either montane scrub or birchy type scrub which there is millions and millions off acres off across alaska, canada, scandi and russia.
I just cant see the logic.
We moan ( rightly) about cutting the rainforset down but heather moorland is 100x s off times rarer

 

[greylag]

Limestone pavement ?... are there any similarities with the Burren in Ireland which is grazed, cant see them fencing half and planting trees over there

 

[MarinePMI]

Limestone pavement ?... are there any similarities with the Burren in Ireland which is grazed, cant see them fencing half and planting trees over there

As fate would have it, I was just reading about limestone pavement in the UK yesterday. Apparently some of it is "protected" as a historical thing, as are some of the quarries.

 

[greylag]

As fate would have it, I was just reading about limestone pavement in the UK yesterday. Apparently some of it is "protected" as a historical thing, as are some of the quarries.

Not sure if this is a limestone pavement but apparently does have a significant limestone, enough to make it a sssi and a rarity in Scotland , Another problem seems to be the straight line fence up the hill this should be avoided in my opinion as its ugly and against nature, I wonder if the idea is to starkley show the difference between grazed moor/pasture and wooded so that future tv personalities can compare the two to gather future rewilders [and donations] to the cause. we are suffering atm from ill thought out plans to save the world and plant trees often on moor and permanent pasture, which are doing a fine job of carbon capture as it is... A fantastic example of limestone flora is in Ireland [as said] google the Burren

 

[Mungo]

Mungo will it actually make any difference for biodiversity or bird/mammal populations?

In this instance, yes, probably - though only if it's done carefully.

The short version is that the rock type (some limestone) means that there is a genuine opportunity to have a very diverse plant community. That will then support a diverse invert and bird community.

Even on acid moorland, some of the sensitive restoration projects can have quite dramatic effects over quite a short period.

It's too simplistic to expect that you just get rank heather. This can happen, especially early on, but you do get succession, with more and more species establishing. If you're ever driving up the A9, one of the nicest examples of this is on Atholl Estate, between Dunkeld and Ballinluig. If you walk up from Tulliemet toward Lochan Oisenneach Mor (Sarah's bothy area), you will get into an area that has had low density deer and no muirburn for a long time. Last summer, out of curiosity, I just counted the plant species along the path either side of the deer fence. On the inside of the deer fence, the first 50m had x5 the number of plant species than THE ENTIRE walk up from Tuilemet, including 10 species of sedge. I was with an insect specialist as well, and it took me 3 hours to get him to move more than 500m. This despite quite extensive areas of 'rank' heather.

So while I think JMT are going about this is a very stupid way, the underlying premise is not totally absurd.

 

[Freeforester]

Mungo will it actually make any difference for biodiversity or bird/mammal populations?
Will u get many extra birds or mammals up there because its scrubby rather than just heather?
Must admit a monoculture of rank heather has very little ecological value for much.

Id imagine it will be so exposed and cold very few animals could live up there anyway.
And wot can tolerarate it are already there.
But i imagine the hills will be a bit off a desert as they are and have very little living on them now anyway due to predation and crap management.
Not like its a grouse moor with a good mix of yoing and old heather as well as the other flora u get in 1st few years after burning.

1 thing i never get about condervation in uk they never try to save wot we have.
Always trying to change or reintroduce something.
U hardly hear much in normal press about trying to save scottish wildcats despite them being 1 off the rarest cats in the world.
Really should be massive PR/Tv appeals for them.
Same with caper.
See a bit about red squirrels but i reckon they wont last that long, another 20 yrs reds will really be struggling big time. U see how quick the greys have colonised s scot, if/when the engli sh greys start spreading squirel pox into the scottish central belt greys that really knocks the reds back quick.

Even with heather moorland, i think 95% off the worlds heather moorland is in uk.
And yet all we want to do is change it to either montane scrub or birchy type scrub which there is millions and millions off acres off across alaska, canada, scandi and russia.
I just cant see the logic.
We moan ( rightly) about cutting the rainforset down but heather moorland is 100x s off times rarer

The wildlife would be fighting off a constant stream of access takers, it’s like the Lake District these days.

 

[MarinePMI]

Not sure if this is a limestone pavement but apparently does have a significant limestone, enough to make it a sssi and a rarity in Scotland , Another problem seems to be the straight line fence up the hill this should be avoided in my opinion as its ugly and against nature, I wonder if the idea is to starkley show the difference between grazed moor/pasture and wooded so that future tv personalities can compare the two to gather future rewilders [and donations] to the cause. we are suffering atm from ill thought out plans to save the world and plant trees often on moor and permanent pasture, which are doing a fine job of carbon capture as it is... A fantastic example of limestone flora is in Ireland [as said] google the Burren

It is my understanding that the UK has limestone in abundance almost everywhere at some depth or level. When you say "fences" am I to assume you mean the short stone walls or earthen, stone faced walls?

Not to derail the thread, but the book I was recently reading (practical guide to dry stone walling, 4th edition) went into great detail about the walls/"fences" of the UK (history, make up, and styles), as well as the geological strata of the whole of the UK, which I found very interesting. They even had a section on laws as they pertain to walls. There's certainly a lot of history behind many of the walls and fences of the UK (sadly of which, many are falling into decay and disrepair). I think the book estimated about 60% of all the walls are no longer capable of withholding livestock. It was pretty eye opening seeing how the styles of the walls were dictated by the availability of what type of stone was common to an area (before the advent of shipping stone over large distances), and how some of the new laws were helping and inhibiting the maintaining or rebuilding of the walls.

 

[greylag]

It is my understanding that the UK has limestone in abundance almost everywhere at some depth or level. When you say "fences" am I to assume you mean the short stone walls or earthen, stone faced walls?

Not to derail the thread, but the book I was recently reading (practical guide to dry stone walling, 4th edition) went into great detail about the walls/"fences" of the UK (history, make up, and styles), as well as the geological strata of the whole of the UK, which I found very interesting. They even had a section on laws as they pertain to walls. There's certainly a lot of history behind many of the walls and fences of the UK (sadly of which, many are falling into decay and disrepair). I think the book estimated about 60% of all the walls are no longer capable of withholding livestock. It was pretty eye opening seeing how the styles of the walls were dictated by the availability of what type of stone was common to an area (before the advent of shipping stone over large distances), and how some of the new laws were helping and inhibiting the maintaining or rebuilding of the walls.

According to the vids it's 2m post and wire deer fence also electrified

 

[Mungo]

It is my understanding that the UK has limestone in abundance almost everywhere at some depth or level. When you say "fences" am I to assume you mean the short stone walls or earthen, stone faced walls?

No - these days, all fencing is wire. JMT are proposing to put up a standard deer fence. Ugly as f*ck and a huge carbon footprint. Also not good news for grouse, who tend to fly into them.

I think if they proposed a traditional stone dyke, they might actually get a lot of support.

Re. Limestone: very common further south, much less so in the Highlands. In very simple terms, the bulk of the calcareous rock got scraped off by the glaciers.

 

[MarinePMI]

No - these days, all fencing is wire. JMT are proposing to put up a standard deer fence. Ugly as f*ck and a huge carbon footprint. Also not good news for grouse, who tend to fly into them.

I think if they proposed a traditional stone dyke, they might actually get a lot of support.

Re. Limestone: very common further south, much less so in the Highlands. In very simple terms, the bulk of the calcareous rock got scraped off by the glaciers.

On the stone wall instead of a wire fence; agreed. Has anyone approached them about this? If I understand it correctly, there's a huge number of volunteer groups that work at preserving the old dry stone walling skills. I'd wager they'd perform the labor for free, if the Trust provided the materials.

Re: Limestone, yes, the book mentioned that the Highlands were lacking in limestone (hence the different style and height of stone walls there).

 

[Mungo]

On the stone wall instead of a wire fence; agreed. Has anyone approached them about this? If I understand it correctly, there's a huge number of volunteer groups that work at preserving the old dry stone walling skills. I'd wager they'd perform the labor for free, if the Trust provided the materials.

Re: Limestone, yes, the book mentioned that the Highlands were lacking in limestone (hence the different style and height of stone walls there).

I wouldn’t say there’s a huge number of volunteer groups. Some, perhaps. And not really able to do something at this scale.

Though the main sticking point might be that you get funding from Scottish Forestry for deer fencing, but not stone walling.

 

[countrryboy]

On the stone wall instead of a wire fence; agreed. Has anyone approached them about this? If I understand it correctly, there's a huge number of volunteer groups that work at preserving the old dry stone walling skills. I'd wager they'd perform the labor for free, if the Trust provided the materials.

Re: Limestone, yes, the book mentioned that the Highlands were lacking in limestone (hence the different style and height of stone walls there).

The big problem u have with volanteer groups is there usually well meaning but useless ****ers.
I do some volanteer work on a couple of nature resrerves, but i tend to avoid the formal days and just go o.n my own or with reserve manager.
Or they phone my when they have a problem or need a hand for a specific job.

Im becoming a grumpier cnut than usual now as i get older and suffer fools less.
I tend to do more tree surgery, storm damage, chainsaw type work, fencing with a bit of hedge laying too and tiny bit of stone dyking.
So generally safer when no ****wits about and i get on quickier

i must admit i dont know the area that well but different areas off scotland have slightly different styles of stone dyking. Usually because of the locally availble stones.
Even a professional dyker might only do 10m per day if that and thats at normal hieght. Would really struggle to make a stone dyke deer proof that would also stand up to the snow drifting.
Not sure the distance involved in this instance, but often for forestry schemes ur talking 5,10 20+K meters.
Even a professional would take 100 days to build 1km.
Dyking is an art volanteers simply wouldnae be up to it.

Even the fencing wont be an easy undertaking.
Could well involve heli's to lay materials out. And still need an assortment of haag lunds, tracked argos, tracked lgp chappers and tractors running twin wheels to get the job done.
Takes a specialist outfit to do that sort of fencing.
If ur interested try googling tagia? outdoors Rab robertson they post a lot off photos online off the big hilk fences they do, got plenty of decent hill kit.
Will see some nice scenery and get an idea off wots involved

 

[Freeforester]

The big problem u have with volanteer groups is there usually well meaning but useless ****ers.
I do some volanteer work on a couple of nature resrerves, but i tend to avoid the formal days and just go o.n my own or with reserve manager.
Or they phone my when they have a problem or need a hand for a specific job.

Im becoming a grumpier cnut than usual now as i get older and suffer fools less.
I tend to do more tree surgery, storm damage, chainsaw type work, fencing with a bit of hedge laying too and tiny bit of stone dyking.
So generally safer when no ****wits about and i get on quickier

i must admit i dont know the area that well but different areas off scotland have slightly different styles of stone dyking. Usually because of the locally availble stones.
Even a professional dyker might only do 10m per day if that and thats at normal hieght. Would really struggle to make a stone dyke deer proof that would also stand up to the snow drifting.
Not sure the distance involved in this instance, but often for forestry schemes ur talking 5,10 20+K meters.
Even a professional would take 100 days to build 1km.
Dyking is an art volanteers simply wouldnae be up to it.

Even the fencing wont be an easy undertaking.
Could well involve heli's to lay materials out. And still need an assortment of haag lunds, tracked argos, tracked lgp chappers and tractors running twin wheels to get the job done.
Takes a specialist outfit to do that sort of fencing.
If ur interested try googling tagia? outdoors Rab robertson they post a lot off photos online off the big hilk fences they do, got plenty of decent hill kit.
Will see some nice scenery and get an idea off wots involved

Quite so, Mair hindrance than help usually.

Bear in mind also it’s the sort of place where if you put up an anemometer for wind measurement, they get blown down, even fully cabled ones, so a harsh environment (bonnets fixed with min 4” wood screw!)

 

[Cootmeurer]

On the stone wall instead of a wire fence; agreed. Has anyone approached them about this? If I understand it correctly, there's a huge number of volunteer groups that work at preserving the old dry stone walling skills. I'd wager they'd perform the labor for free, if the Trust provided the materials.

Re: Limestone, yes, the book mentioned that the Highlands were lacking in limestone (hence the different style and height of stone walls there).

No, I had a 1/4 mile of dry laid stone fence on the farm I had in KY. Beautiful stuff, but laying it is a glacially slow process. The old timer said it was only cost effective if you had a lot of free stone, and planned to hold the land for at least 3 generations. As far as volunteers went - they were usually anxious to do small sections on really nice spring or fall days. Their willingness to volunteer during weather, or the heat of summer, or cold or winter, was nearly non-existent.

As to the history, Kentucky had a lot of stone fences but most were put up post Civil War. The Scots/Irish master masons couldn’t find apprentices, until all the sudden there was a massive number of freed slaves. Freed slaves that would gladly trade a few years for a true trade, and didn’t shun hard work.

 

[MarinePMI]

No, I had a 1/4 mile of dry laid stone fence on the farm I had in KY. Beautiful stuff, but laying it is a glacially slow process. The old timer said it was only cost effective if you had a lot of free stone, and planned to hold the land for at least 3 generations. As far as volunteers went - they were usually anxious to do small sections on really nice spring or fall days. Their willingness to volunteer during weather, or the heat of summer, or cold or winter, was nearly non-existent.

As to the history, Kentucky had a lot of stone fences but most were put up post Civil War. The Scots/Irish master masons couldn’t find apprentices, until all the sudden there was a massive number of freed slaves. Freed slaves that would gladly trade a few years for a true trade, and didn’t shun hard work.

Ironically, the two most popular Stone Masonry centers in the US are Tennessee and Vermont. Before those two instances of the The Stone Trust, masons had to travel to the UK to get certified as a dry stone waller.

I plan to lay/build a dry stone wall on my property in Montana, but I will be retired, so lots of free time. And a quarry is located 20 mins away, so having stone brought in to supplement the local stuff that gets pulled out during the construction of the house. And yes, the intent is to keep the property in the family for many generations.