Legal Advice- is there a 3000 ft lbs limit for UK deer use ? Some police forces believe there is.

[billy_boyle_2010]

Hi guys

I wondered if someone can shed some light on the legality of issuing calibres above the 3000 ft lb limit for UK use ?

Home office guidance (pictured) has most UK deer legal calibres in the 2000-3000 ft lb range. Above this is dangerous game category, and stated not suitable for UK deer.

Is it then legal for FEOs to use this as a guide or starting point for which calibres can be cleared for UK use ?

For example- if one felt they had good reason to justify a larger calibre- perhaps one that would deal with the longer range requirements in open, windy Scottish Highlands, for example - is it legal for firearms departments to decline it- based on its ft lbs figures being in line with the dangerous game category (eg 3000-6000 ft lbs)?

The most common magnum calibres- 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag- are not listed in the table. But the 300 is certainty above 3000 ft lbs- and the rem mag is on the limit.

I ask as I have heard magnum calibres are now being declined in England, based on the above? 300 Win Mag is what- 3400-3700 ft lbs ?

And whilst one can have all the ballistics info, good reason and evidence of a need for a magnum calibre- it seems that the police do seem to have this table as a starting point.

Please note- I would prefer this doesn't become a "no one needs a magnum for UK use debate".

This is strictly a question on the legality of police decision making. In fairness to them- it doesn't look like they have an awful lot to go on. They don't appear to have strict rules and numbers as a starting point- but in terms of actual figures- this table appears to be as close as you can get.

Finally- I have met and know a number of people who shoot magnum calibres and above which are cleared for UK use.

But it appears that police attitudes and approach are changing- perhaps for the better I don't know. But it seems this little bit of data is all they have to go on and they are relying on it more than previously.

Let's hope it's not used to revoke anyone's existing grants for Magnum calibres for UK use.

 

[User00040]

Not in Scotland

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Not in Scotland

No I think Scotland seem to have their head screwed on. In fairness there are an awful lot of deer up there with much larger areas of ground.

 

[cjm1066]

375 H@H is OK for deer, what you are reading is Home Office Guidance not the law. Make a case fir a larger calibre and get it.

 

[VSS]

If you have a genuine good reason for requesting a particular calibre, then you'll get it.

 

[Donkey Basher]

Looks like all you chaps with a 243 are going to be in bigger at next renewal then...

'.243' appears in the second part of the table where it says it can be used for fox but not deer; it then appears again in the third part of the table where it says it cannot be used for fox but can be used for deer...

Ditto for 6mm.

As our American cousins might say "go figure"!

To my mind that in itself is sufficient contradiction for a good KC to drive a coach & horses through the guidance if ever it were to be challenged in court.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

375 H@H is OK for deer, what you are reading is Home Office Guidance not the law. Make a case fir a larger calibre and get it.

Agreed- it's guidance. But doesn't this give a good case for the police ? At the least it puts the applicant on the back foot- with very much the onus on the applicant to justify going beyond it.

To put it another way- one has to find "good reason" for any calibre. But with the ft lb guidance on their side- perhaps one has to find "extra good reason"

Interestingly- there doesn't seem to be any guidance in a table for between 3000 and 3500-3800 ft lbs.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

Looks like all you chaps with a 243 are going to be in bigger at next renewal then...

'.243' appears in the second part of the table where it says it can be used for fox but not deer; it then appears again in the third part of the table where it says it cannot be used for fox but can be used for deer...

Ditto for 6mm.

As our American cousins might say "go figure"!

To my mind that in itself is sufficient contradiction for a good KC to drive a coach & horses through the guidance if ever it were to be challenged in court.

Well spotted. And yes- it probably would.

But how many people will take their local firearms dept to court because they want a magnum calibre ?

 

[Lancaster]

Looks like all you chaps with a 243 are going to be in bigger at next renewal then...

'.243' appears in the second part of the table where it says it can be used for fox but not deer; it then appears again in the third part of the table where it says it cannot be used for fox but can be used for deer...

Ditto for 6mm.

As our American cousins might say "go figure"!

To my mind that in itself is sufficient contradiction for a good KC to drive a coach & horses through the guidance if ever it were to be challenged in court.

These are guidelines, not law.
Before Humberside went with "Any Lawful Quarry suitable for that calibre", I had deer and fox for .243 for years though, if I were pedantic, they really should go with "Any Lawful Quarry suitable for that chambering"

 

[doric_prince]

There isn’t a legal limit on ME to be used, in Scotland there is a minimum ME that can be used on (I) roe and (II) all other deer species, respectively.

If you read the separate section in the home office guidelines relating to suitability of calibres to grant, there is a paragraph that states clearly that dangerous game calibres, once a suitable reason for initial grant has been established, theses can be conditionEd for use on uk species.

bear in mind guidelines are just that and not legally enshrined in legislation/ law. I don’t read the table as conclusive set of instructions for police to consider ME across calibres, just indicative of some calibres / ME that may indicate suitable for an initial grant for the corresponding use/ quarry listed.

 

[Lateral]

That guidance list is SO flawed, with ME figures obtained from god knows where, and a massive lack of popular chamberings, it's little surprise that FEO's, most of whom have never fired a rifle, have a clue how to judge what is, or isn't a suitable calibre/chambering !

The guidance so desperately needs completely updating.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

There isn’t a legal limit on ME to be used, in Scotland there is a minimum ME that can be used on (I) roe and (II) all other deer species, respectively.

If you read the separate section in the home office guidelines relating to suitability of calibres to grant, there is a paragraph that states clearly that dangerous game calibres, once a suitable reason for initial grant has been established, theses can be conditionEd for use on uk species.

bear in mind guidelines are just that and not legally enshrined in legislation/ law. I don’t read the table as conclusive set of instructions for police to consider ME across calibres, just indicative of some calibres / ME that may indicate suitable for an initial grant for the corresponding use/ quarry listed.

Interesting. 12.37.

 

[webley701]

The table shown is a guide - not statutory advice.

 

[billy_boyle_2010]

The table shown is a guide - not statutory advice.

Agreed. But from what I have gathered - some forces are using it as a firm guideline- and the bar of requirement to show "good reason" is higher as a result :s

 

[One on top of two]

I had no issues with my 7RM and a mate has a variation in for a .300 win mag

 

[doric_prince]

You could, if so inclined, ask them to provide a legal reference to the section of the legislation that explicitly states a maximum ME.

or, book a forgien trip that the target quarry fits with the (apparent firm) guidance and then request it is subsequently conditioned for uk species.

or, develop a sound reasoning for owning such a calibre with associated ME for uk species use.

the latter option was the road I choose for my 7mm rem mag variation a few years back , I proactively sought to head off any potential concerns and set out clearly why I sought a calibre with such a bc and the down range ME were of requirement for the type of stalking I did currently domestically and separately intended to do overseas in the near future - I.e open mountain terrain with high cross wind and occasional reasonable heavy bodied quarry. I was granted no questions asked.

I also have a .243 win and have both calibres alqa, both for red deer, with the .243 reason given as use on fox and roe also, FAC renewed a few months ago- again no questions asked on suitability of either calibre.

 

[User00047]

Home office guidance (pictured) has most UK deer legal calibres in the 2000-3000 ft lb range. Above this is dangerous game category, and stated not suitable for UK deer.

For example- if one felt they had good reason to justify a larger calibre- perhaps one that would deal with the longer range requirements in open, windy Scottish Highlands, for example - is it legal for firearms departments to decline it- based on its ft lbs figures being in line with the dangerous game category (eg 3000-6000 ft lbs)?

I’d love to know how they came by these “categories”

 

[Namman]

Hi guys

I wondered if someone can shed some light on the legality of issuing calibres above the 3000 ft lb limit for UK use ?

Home office guidance (pictured) has most UK deer legal calibres in the 2000-3000 ft lb range. Above this is dangerous game category, and stated not suitable for UK deer.

Is it then legal for FEOs to use this as a guide or starting point for which calibres can be cleared for UK use ?

For example- if one felt they had good reason to justify a larger calibre- perhaps one that would deal with the longer range requirements in open, windy Scottish Highlands, for example - is it legal for firearms departments to decline it- based on its ft lbs figures being in line with the dangerous game category (eg 3000-6000 ft lbs)?

The most common magnum calibres- 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag- are not listed in the table. But the 300 is certainty above 3000 ft lbs- and the rem mag is on the limit.

I ask as I have heard magnum calibres are now being declined in England, based on the above? 300 Win Mag is what- 3400-3700 ft lbs ?

And whilst one can have all the ballistics info, good reason and evidence of a need for a magnum calibre- it seems that the police do seem to have this table as a starting point.

Please note- I would prefer this doesn't become a "no one needs a magnum for UK use debate".

This is strictly a question on the legality of police decision making. In fairness to them- it doesn't look like they have an awful lot to go on. They don't appear to have strict rules and numbers as a starting point- but in terms of actual figures- this table appears to be as close as you can get.

Finally- I have met and know a number of people who shoot magnum calibres and above which are cleared for UK use.

But it appears that police attitudes and approach are changing- perhaps for the better I don't know. But it seems this little bit of data is all they have to go on and they are relying on it more than previously.

Let's hope it's not used to revoke anyone's existing grants for Magnum calibres for UK use.

Are you asking for a friend. ?

 

[25 Sharps]

Hi guys

I wondered if someone can shed some light on the legality of issuing calibres above the 3000 ft lb limit for UK use ?

Home office guidance (pictured) has most UK deer legal calibres in the 2000-3000 ft lb range. Above this is dangerous game category, and stated not suitable for UK deer.

Is it then legal for FEOs to use this as a guide or starting point for which calibres can be cleared for UK use ?

For example- if one felt they had good reason to justify a larger calibre- perhaps one that would deal with the longer range requirements in open, windy Scottish Highlands, for example - is it legal for firearms departments to decline it- based on its ft lbs figures being in line with the dangerous game category (eg 3000-6000 ft lbs)?

The most common magnum calibres- 300 Win Mag and 7mm Rem Mag- are not listed in the table. But the 300 is certainty above 3000 ft lbs- and the rem mag is on the limit.

I ask as I have heard magnum calibres are now being declined in England, based on the above? 300 Win Mag is what- 3400-3700 ft lbs ?

And whilst one can have all the ballistics info, good reason and evidence of a need for a magnum calibre- it seems that the police do seem to have this table as a starting point.

Please note- I would prefer this doesn't become a "no one needs a magnum for UK use debate".

This is strictly a question on the legality of police decision making. In fairness to them- it doesn't look like they have an awful lot to go on. They don't appear to have strict rules and numbers as a starting point- but in terms of actual figures- this table appears to be as close as you can get.

Finally- I have met and know a number of people who shoot magnum calibres and above which are cleared for UK use.

But it appears that police attitudes and approach are changing- perhaps for the better I don't know. But it seems this little bit of data is all they have to go on and they are relying on it more than previously.

Let's hope it's not used to revoke anyone's existing grants for Magnum calibres for UK use.

That table hasn’t changed for years, they get more excited about bore size than muzzle energy.

.308 can be loaded over 3000 ft-lb
.280 same
45-70 with the right powder can nudge 4000 ft-lb.

I have all of the above Conditioned for deer, plenty have magnums including the new PRCs conditioned for deer.

I think you’re over thinking it, a lot…..

 

[25 Sharps]

Looks like all you chaps with a 243 are going to be in bigger at next renewal then...

'.243' appears in the second part of the table where it says it can be used for fox but not deer; it then appears again in the third part of the table where it says it cannot be used for fox but can be used for deer...

Ditto for 6mm.

As our American cousins might say "go figure"!

To my mind that in itself is sufficient contradiction for a good KC to drive a coach & horses through the guidance if ever it were to be challenged in court.

The table does not say what calibres can be used for, it never has, it gives guidance on what quarry constitutes ‘good reason’ for various calibres.

Also, if you look a little closer .243 and 6mm are repeated in the row below which state ‘yes’ for deer.

It also states in a footnote the list is not exhaustive.