Making stalking more accessible

[slider]

Interestingly Victoria is roughly the same size as UK, it's hard to find figures on how many 'licenced hunters' we have? But of the 153,404 FAC holders have some 315,000 rifles?

How many are deer stalkers I don't know? 24,000 people have completed a DSC1 so not miles away from Victoria's 30,000 licensed hunters. (Before you start I know there are plenty of very good capable stalkers without a DSC1).

does anybody know how many fatal hunting accidents have happen here in last ten years?

Victoria 237, 629 km2 population 6,039,100 and 30,000 hunters
UK 245,610 km2 population 66,573,504 and 153,404 rifle owners (obvs some will be target/vermin/collectors)

So looking at these figures 0.47% population are hunting in Victoria as opposed to 0.23% in UK

I have no idea what any of this means in terms of whether stalking in Aus is more accessible than here in UK and if that reflects on safety, I have to say I haven't heard of a fatal accident in the UK, but then I don't read the papers.

Now I realise that his is all firearms related deaths , but a Oz has times as many as the UK

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

 

[slider]

But the biggest problem with that is most community buy outs will not be big enough to support a FT stalker or even to guarantee deer numbers without relying on the neighbouring grounds.

The even bigger problem is most of these 'community' groups are full of complete numpties, often not really locals usually white settlers who generally have absolutely no common sense or idea. so the chance of them ever organising a truly sustainable stalking scheme or anything else sustainable for that matter is slim.

I couldn't possibly comment

 

[Ranger22]

There are a few pros and cons to professionals and amateurs with respect to deer culling in public and private land.

The evidence in my neck of the woods is some pros are very good hunting at night with gear the average stalking is prohibited from accessing and in the right circumstances can kill many more deer than the average stalker can during the day. The counter argument is 35,000 stalkers and houndsmen took 100,000 deer during the day. Numbers pros could never achieve nor over such a vast area.

Something like commandos versus infantry.

I get more during daylight hours than I do with a lamp by far.

 

[Wills]

I couldn't possibly comment

The trouble with community groups is that someone needs to be in charge otherwise nothing gets done.

 

[SaOsborne]

Your contact with the F.C and mine appear to have been very different. We have 10 members and a high(ish) quota to fill, more than I believe is sustainable. The syndicate is wide open to anyone who has or is obtaining DSC Lvl II. (no shooting before obtained).The FC are great people to deal with and have advised we are doing a great job, they are openly very pleased with not only our cull but lack of public complaints, the fact we take time to engage with the public and that we monitor and feed back on the woods, dumping, moterbikes, misuse, etc. Sadly funding is an issue for the F.C as in any public body and things like ride clearance have dropped off, meaning a difficult job just got harder. The public use has doubled in our tour time, pain in the proverbials. I have had 2 or 3 scary moments where spotted animal, scanned, lined up just to have a random appear from the bushes, really makes the hunting "exciting". So not for everyone, dont forget this on your wish list. F.C land is not your average stalk in private woodland, you have to be an ambasador to the sport (at least in the south due to public presence) and be willing to give up a stalk to not upset the peace, though I do hold my own when needed! Was last year, just taken an old fellow Roe buck, but placement wasnt perfect and I waited for the animal to pass without disturbance, only to have an old couple come running up the track to see what was happening (hadnt seen them). I then had to launch into a full explanation of how I was letting the animal pass gracefully on, having to intercept them on the run in to have a look. this is just one of oh so many encounters I could tell. Who's for a book!

All I am saying is whilst there are options that should and can be explored dont forget sometimes its no picknic.

Another avenue to look for is the forrestry management companies, e.g Tillhill, Fountains etc, they all let contracts for private woodland stalking for areas they manage, but again they let contract with agreed cull plans you have to produce and then complete!

The whole FC business has always been a bit of a postcode lottery in my opinion. Scotland with its less dense populations and more accessible stalking areas will no doubt always have more stalking leases to offer, and not only with the FC. There are other forestry businesses that also lease out stalking rights.

However in England, and in particularly southern England you have a large population of people and a great many using FC land. The problems of conflict with public is going to be much higher. Therefore there is a more distinct possibility that the insurance companies used by the FC will not want people with rifles wandering around woodland used by the public.

Having dealt with the FC over a particular area and been given the opportunity to stalk the deer on there, I, along with 3 colleagues withdrew our offer at the meeting. The FC obviously at the time wanted maximum money for hardly and return on our behalf, 10 Fallow bucks and 10 Roe bucks between 1st April and the end of October was a complete joke. The doe numbers were and still are the issue, and would have been far easier with less public access in the winter. Its best to just walk away from situations that you know are not going to work and where you are having your pants pulled down.

It is still the same in other areas in the south and south east, cant see anything changing either with them.

 

[Chasey]

It’s not a game, we have culls to achieve and trees to protect. It takes us all our time to do so, so somebody coming along for a day or two by themselves on unfamiliar ground is not going to achieve anything. More schemes like Arran might be the way to go. It’s affordable for everyone. The one question needing asked is, is there a big enough demand for more schemes? There is only a good handful of folk on here wanting things opened up.

It is a game or a hobby of you will

The FC are not paying you to shoot deer so your not profesionals doing a job

I have trees to protect and cull targets to meet on my permissions so whats the difference

If DSC2 isn't high enough qualification he make one that is.

The thought that all FC land is managed by ninja skills pro stalkers is an absolute joke

You pay your god knows how many thousand for the land and sell it on to individual stalkers to stalk, usualy at a profit

Pro stalkers taking amater stalkers on guided stalks on FC land isn't super efficient culling. Its a retirement job

I find it an oxymoron that there will be pockets of land that are shot several times a week but the shooters are still unable to control the vast hords of deer on said land?

If theres loads of deer and thers enough bums on seats then deer will fall

Under the 1968 Wildlife and Countryside act the FC were instructed to open up to the public for recreational purposis, yet deer stalking seems to have slipped through the net

 

[Ranger22]

Your right. We’re not ninja skills pro stalkers, just professional stalkers. If amuses me that other people think that because they have done a bit of stalking and shot deer that they could do my job with their eyes shut. That would be ninja pro stalkers!

 

[Chasey]

Your right. We’re not ninja skills pro stalkers, just professional stalkers. If amuses me that other people think that because they have done a bit of stalking and shot deer that they could do my job with their eyes shut. That would be ninja pro stalkers!

Cool so have a pro like you as land manger in a fully paid position and let qualified stalkers pay an annual hunting licence to pay for your sallery and then enter a lottery for slots to shoot.

The issue here is this is public land set aside for use by the public and its been hijacked for private profitable gain.

You want to run a 10K per gun syndicate on private land then you go for it. There will always be those who will pay for luxery and exclusivity.

FC land funded in part by the tax payer should be accessable by all

 

[mchughcb]

That last sentence I agree with whole heartedly Chasey. For some the years of work only to allow the "others" to rock up with nothing more than a licence and start hunting is inconceivable. Yet when I came from Western Australia which is 1/4 the size of Europe had no public land available for hunting, except for a very very select few that was not advertised to anybody. I moved to Victoria which again is 10% the size of West Australia with 35,000+ more hunters and every Tom, Dick and Harry is wandering around the bush with a 308Win or bigger. Yet one fatality in a decade with the latter, how is that possible?

I'll tell you how that's possible, is because the perceived risks from hunting and read "death" by accidental shooting is several orders of magnitude higher than the actual risks based on real evidence.

 

[mchughcb]

Your contact with the F.C and mine appear to have been very different. We have 10 members and a high(ish) quota to fill, more than I believe is sustainable. The syndicate is wide open to anyone who has or is obtaining DSC Lvl II. (no shooting before obtained).The FC are great people to deal with and have advised we are doing a great job, they are openly very pleased with not only our cull but lack of public complaints, the fact we take time to engage with the public and that we monitor and feed back on the woods, dumping, moterbikes, misuse, etc. Sadly funding is an issue for the F.C as in any public body and things like ride clearance have dropped off, meaning a difficult job just got harder. The public use has doubled in our tour time, pain in the proverbials. I have had 2 or 3 scary moments where spotted animal, scanned, lined up just to have a random appear from the bushes, really makes the hunting "exciting". So not for everyone, dont forget this on your wish list. F.C land is not your average stalk in private woodland, you have to be an ambasador to the sport (at least in the south due to public presence) and be willing to give up a stalk to not upset the peace, though I do hold my own when needed! Was last year, just taken an old fellow Roe buck, but placement wasnt perfect and I waited for the animal to pass without disturbance, only to have an old couple come running up the track to see what was happening (hadnt seen them). I then had to launch into a full explanation of how I was letting the animal pass gracefully on, having to intercept them on the run in to have a look. this is just one of oh so many encounters I could tell. Who's for a book!

All I am saying is whilst there are options that should and can be explored dont forget sometimes its no picknic.

Another avenue to look for is the forrestry management companies, e.g Tillhill, Fountains etc, they all let contracts for private woodland stalking for areas they manage, but again they let contract with agreed cull plans you have to produce and then complete!

I can tell you through Government education in the yearly game management authority and the "Respect" campaign, its every hunter's obligation not to be a complete ass to the public encountered during hunting. Some may agree, some may disagree and many are just plain curious. However acting as an ambassador for hunters when on public land, including offering any spoils goes a long way to ensuring that its a right, rather than a privilege of the land owned by the people for the people.

 

[Ranger22]

Cool so have a pro like you as land manger in a fully paid position and let qualified stalkers pay an annual hunting licence to pay for your sallery and then enter a lottery for slots to shoot.

The issue here is this is public land set aside for use by the public and its been hijacked for private profitable gain.

You want to run a 10K per gun syndicate on private land then you go for it. There will always be those who will pay for luxery and exclusivity.

FC land funded in part by the tax payer should be accessable by all

FC land is accessable by all, the ones that want to shoot have to pay.

I dont want to run any syndicate, where your getting this idea from I have no idea.

 

[slider]

Cool so have a pro like you as land manger in a fully paid position and let qualified stalkers pay an annual hunting licence to pay for your sallery and then enter a lottery for slots to shoot.

The issue here is this is public land set aside for use by the public and its been hijacked for private profitable gain.

You want to run a 10K per gun syndicate on private land then you go for it. There will always be those who will pay for luxery and exclusivity.

FC land funded in part by the tax payer should be accessable by all

Wrong. FC land is publicly owned land that is managed by FC.

The land should be managed for the best value to the public purse, not just the stalking community.

In general lease area are costly to managed and often do not produce best value in woodland protection. An employed ranger or contracted with a cull target to meet has little option but get out their bed on a ****y wet morning. A rec stalker on the other hand........

 

[mchughcb]

That's very presumptuous that rec stalkers won't hunt in the rain. When you have thousands of hunters to choose from there will always be somebody out.

 

[SaOsborne]

That's very presumptuous that rec stalkers won't hunt in the rain. When you have thousands of hunters to choose from there will always be somebody out.

I agree on this, the weather plays very little into if I am out other than, if I am out are the deer likely to be too. I go out very often when the winds are picking up and the rain is starting as I find animals concerntrated in the lee side of the weather that day. I am truly a non-proffessional hunter as I have to do a full days work elsewhere before any other activity, but with some determination, a willingness to get out and lady luck I turn a good return. F.C land is public land and I will allways believe stalking can be more open and regulated at the same time. as i do with MoD land as I am well aware from expierience it is just a boys club for the forces. There is a lot of public land tied up, where if there was a will things could be different.

 

[slider]

That's very presumptuous that rec stalkers won't hunt in the rain. When you have thousands of hunters to choose from there will always be somebody out.

That's not how the facts play out. There are a great many FC (and private forestry) leases where cull targets are not met and FC needs to step in to complete the cull.

Very often you will find a syndicate of 5 or 6 folk but only 1 or 2 doing the work. The others being very much fair weather stalkers who are literally paying for a lease to keep their ticket.

But that's a side show. The main point as I made earlier is that for forestry business ( public or not) deer control is about crop protection not providing entertainment. If they can generate income that's fine, but at £2500 to £4000/ hectare to plant woodland and potentially up to £1000 / ha to replaced damaged trees, stalking income is almost irrelevant. Getting the job done is the number one consideration.

I can understand that those that use forums such as SD are more dedicate, but there are plenty of hangers on out there!

I just don't get the argument anout public forests providing public stalking. Public forests should provide public benefit. That does not necessarily translate to cheap sport for a minority if the population.

It a bit like sayi g public swimming pools should have free entry as a few folk enjoy it.

 

[mchughcb]

Ocean is free and the Clyde are free and anybody can swim in it even if its raining.

 

[slider]

Ocean is free and the Clyde are free and anybody can swim in it even if its raining.

Yeap, but neither are owned by a public body.

In fact the foreshore is owned by the Crown, so you can't go shoot geese for free.

 

[Chasey]

Wrong. FC land is publicly owned land that is managed by FC.

The land should be managed for the best value to the public purse, not just the stalking community.

In general lease area are costly to managed and often do not produce best value in woodland protection. An employed ranger or contracted with a cull target to meet has little option but get out their bed on a ****y wet morning. A rec stalker on the other hand........

Who said it should be manged for the stalking community?

What **** me off is they are selling recreational stalking under the pretense of land management

You dont pay them to manage an issue on the land, they pay you

No FC has ever put out tree felling to the highest bidder to have some company pay for the privalage of cutting down trees

There is a fundamental flaw in the system

 

[Pedro]

Stalking just isn't easy. Period. It can, of course get easy once you have jumped through all the hoops and done the leg work and spent a fortune. Firstly you have to get a firearms certificate. (yes, yes, I know you can do it without, but not as an ongoing thing practically.) You then have to shake the moths out of your wallet and buy a suitable rifle, scope, moderator, cabinet, sticks, boots, attire, something to transport you, dog, dead deer and all the other clobber around. Then there's getting the stalking, which you may be lucky and already have, but most will have a long slog to get any meaningful land permission and in the meantime, you'll have to handsomely pay to use someone else's. Then there's the butchery side of things...

Frankly, unless you are one of those really lucky people who have some suitable land in the family, if you start from scratch, it's going to cost and it's going to take time. Sadly, it isn't like booking a holiday, where you can go into a shop in town, sit opposite an impossibly tanned young lady who will tippy tap away on the computer without breaking her impossibly manicured nails and come up with the goods within 20 minutes with an impossibly white toothed smile.

But then, like anything hard to achieve, the success when it comes is all the more sweet.

 

[oldgregg]

So, if public land is opened up who will administrate and police this? Sounds to me like money will be moved from paying people to cull deer to paying people to oversee other people culling deer? No?