The only reason rec stalking is sold is due to the demands of the stalking community and consequent pressures brought by shooting organisations. FC would far rather have total control over stalking by using in house staff and contractors. As it if WRMs spend the're time managing people and not shooting deer
Making stalking more accessible
- Thread starter Dukesarcher
- Start date
The only reason rec stalking is sold is due to the demands of the stalking community and consequent pressures brought by shooting organisations. FC would far rather have total control over stalking by using in house staff and contractors. As it if WRMs spend the're time managing people and not shooting deer
At last, someone that can see sense
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
Correct.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
Well, that for the people to decide. Most countries have a government body to administrate and police it. Compliance officers to be more correct. If you think it needs to be extremely bureaucratic then it will cost a lot. If people pay 100 quid a year for a deer stalking game licence then they help pay for the above administration and compliance plus other work associated with management. The people will pay the government to hunt on the public land not the government to pay a selected few to hunt on public land, and at a rate far lower than an estates.
Wouldn't it be nice to pay 30 quid per year to hunt as many days as you like, where you like on selected areas of public land? Well that's what happens down in Victoria.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Sorry I'm confused by ur post?
If the stalking community isn't going to manage it who is? Who'll pay for it?
Government body, that's a joke every council etc is completely broke
Wot are u saying recreational stalking is or isn't a land management tool?? When done well I don't think there is any doubt it is an effective management tool, without it the timber industry would be screwed unless u only wanted to cut match sticks
Off course the FC put out tenders for companies to cut trees, and yes u can buy a ticket of some districts to even pick up roadside scraps.
Everything with the FC is put out to tender with a clear paper trial.
As slider has said I bet there is far more work involved in letting ground to syndicates and it probably would make more sense to just do it all in house.
Even the Arran scheme, which is a great scheme, I doubt its really sustainable, I've not been but from wot I can gather u have a FC ranger on stand by most of the time, u also have a basc co ordinate on stand by.
Even thou u could have 10or 20 rifles out a week, I'd bet the FT ranger there could go out himself and shoot more than they do most weeks, not because he's some super ninja stalker but because he knows his ground.
And that's the problem with letting day stalkers or lottery stalkers on they'd never really get to know the ground so even if they were very good stalkers they'd never be stalking to their full abilities as they don't know the ground
The population density has been mentioned but another important thing is the almost all the trees in this country have been planted (at a cost) and are a crop no different to a farmers arable crop, most of these wilderness areas the trees will have little value for harvesting and no cost to grow and massive acreages so deer damage is not so critical.
As I've said before stalking is more accessable than its ever been but it's not instant perhaps this demand that stalking is instantly available to anyone is just the modern way of things where every one wants stuff there and then and no one has any patience.
I thik it is a good thing u serve ur 'aprenticship' and work ur may up throu airguns,22's etc it gives u the basics of fieldcraft and safety
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
If u let the people decide there would be no stalking full stop, if some of the people had there way there would be no killing animals or private gun ownership either.
Ithink ur struggling to understand the differences is scale between UK and OZ.
The majority of UK population are very urbanised now, even folk that live in the country and they simply don't understand the need for it.
Many stalkers here will be 'managing' areas of 100 acres and be over the moon with that, when I was working in OZ some of the farmers fields were 6-8000 acres.
There is just so much demand on UK countryside now, I know I've almost dropped trees on top of numpties, working in the middle of no where and never expected folk to walk down the edge of a forestry site (esp if they can hear a saw going full tilt and see a load of trees lying on the deck) with no footpaths for 10 miles
Even in a pretty rural un populated place like where I live its surprising how often u see people walking in even quite remote woods
This is just the same as coastal wildfowling. A hunter gatherer activity has degenerated into a 'sport'. 5 members of two local families used to 'each' shoot as many duck as 40 town-based club members now shoot between them.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
Ermm no. I spent plenty of time in the UK and most of that in Scotland and Northern Ireland. I appreciate that I can drive from Glasgow to Tongue in less a day but I can also do that in Victoria as 6 1/2 hours is about what it takes the long way to get out of Victoria. Terrain of hills is similar to the high country and plenty of forests.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
I'm bit confused. People will pay top dollar for stalking but the masses won't pay $100 quid a year for access to public land in the UK? The money would be self sustaining to justify the administration of game licences. The whole point in most other countries is the licence goes towards game management.
TOMMO.B
Well-Known Member
If say we open all ground to the masses. Has any one taken a minute to think about how joe bloggs the high seat stalker is going to deal with a 130kg stag he has shot on a hill.
When all he has is a bit of rope? What if he wounds and has no dog for follow up?
There is a lot or training and thought goes in to what kit and the use of when extracting. Where is all this extra shot deer going to be larded and processed.
SO the hobby stalker will need a quad an argo and a larder. A 4x4 to tow it all.
Soon turns a hobby in to a full time cash cow. That i am sure many will fall away from.
When all he has is a bit of rope? What if he wounds and has no dog for follow up?
There is a lot or training and thought goes in to what kit and the use of when extracting. Where is all this extra shot deer going to be larded and processed.
SO the hobby stalker will need a quad an argo and a larder. A 4x4 to tow it all.
Soon turns a hobby in to a full time cash cow. That i am sure many will fall away from.
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Aye but the land ownership isn't, we simply do not have vast areas of public wilderness. And the public land (if u call FC land that) is growing a crop it is not there for any other reason.
Thoose trees will have been bought by the public, roads put in, doluped/mounded or ploughed, planted, possibly sprayed, beatup possibly twice, possibly thinned once or twice all paid for by the public and all expenses (possibly thinning may break even).
By all accounts over the next 30plus years there is going to be a massive shortage of timber in the UK, so is it really a good time to lay about with amateur hour?
A tree damaged at say ,5yrs old will grow for another 35ish taking up the space of a decent tree and might not make enough timber topay the harvesting costs never mind make a profit for the landowner.
Land or standing timber prices are not cheap and profits aren't always high, excessive deer damage can screw large areas very quickly
We've been down this road before, just the population and demands on the countryside are in a different scale when u compare Scotland even to Victoria, scot has 5milliom folk while mainly central belt (fairly cenral so has access to much of Scotland within 2hrs drive) has some decent cities/big towns elsewhere, whilei imagine Victoria's pop is mainly in Melbourne which is also on on the coast so 2hrs doesn't cover as high a % of victoria
But even the culture/mentality is vastly different now (and changing fast) even rural towns are not really very rural and often against killing stuff, Oz is far more open minded to controlling stuff.
When I worked out there down about the NSW/Vic border 1 town's gala (Cowra?) day they set a rodeo pen up the pub car park and had a mini rodeo with real sized braham bulls and drove a few flocks of sheep throu the streets in sweltering heat, they've just banned that in a local town cos of some animal rights group who's never seen it, all for charity too. Sadly u just wouldn't get that here, everywhere is too urbanised and H&S has went mental
Does Oz still drop much poison nowadays? U'd never ever get away with that in UK.
Or shooting cats, I'm sure I remember the army being sent in around Melbourne to a nature reserve/woodland lamping any cats/foxes/dogs they seen.
No official org would have the balls to do that in the UK no matter how much damage the cats were proved to be doing
I'd love to pay 100 or more quid a year to get access to FC ground, who wouldn't. My house boundries onto 10'000ish acres of FC ground so it would be ideal, but I'm also a realist, it just wo't happen 100 quid wouldn't cover the paper workas1 thing the FC loves is paperwork.
But even the last FC syndicate I was in u had to give 48hrs notice, plus sign in/out of the ground, pass a shooting test, carry various bits of saftey gear, be waiting at the gate at a specified time if u were still in so the ranger could spot check u. I know some things have changed but even monitoring th 48hrs notice and who's entering/leaving ground would be a massive undertaking if rolled out across all a FC distircts forests
And I say for the umpteenth time, far less people.
mchughcb
Well-Known Member
And i say simply dividing land mass population and then make a throw away comment in future land use is flawed. But if one cannot take the blinkers off then it reminds me of an old Jonathon Watson and Tony Roper sketch. Could Scotland manage its own affairs or would it blow the lot on a ****up?
Why is it a throw away comment???
Scotland has 2.5 x the population density of Victoria. Now that doesn't mean you are 2.5 x more likely to come across someone, it means 2.5 people are more likely to come across 2.5 people. Therefor there it is 6.25 x more likely that someone in Scotland will bump into some else than the same scenario in Victoria.
Add to that that Scottish people had a right of responsible access to almost any land (compound by the fact that there is a perceived view by many that this means they can go where they like when they like). I have no idea if Victoria has a similar law.
Add to that the vast majority of Scots are so sanitised from the realities of rural life that it's truly frightening. It is not unusual for perfectly legitimate stalker spotted carrying a "sniper rifle" by an ignorant member of the public to result if an armed response police unit appearing on the scene.
Finally - the totally unnecessary jibe at Scotland's people shows you in your true ignorant colours.
Scotland has 2.5 x the population density of Victoria. Now that doesn't mean you are 2.5 x more likely to come across someone, it means 2.5 people are more likely to come across 2.5 people. Therefor there it is 6.25 x more likely that someone in Scotland will bump into some else than the same scenario in Victoria.
Add to that that Scottish people had a right of responsible access to almost any land (compound by the fact that there is a perceived view by many that this means they can go where they like when they like). I have no idea if Victoria has a similar law.
Add to that the vast majority of Scots are so sanitised from the realities of rural life that it's truly frightening. It is not unusual for perfectly legitimate stalker spotted carrying a "sniper rifle" by an ignorant member of the public to result if an armed response police unit appearing on the scene.
Finally - the totally unnecessary jibe at Scotland's people shows you in your true ignorant colours.
Lupus
Well-Known Member
Just have a little think about what you said there and the consequences if it were so.
Wolfie
By the same argument you will be wanting free access to public swimming pools, leisure centres, car parks etc etc..........
Lupus
Well-Known Member
I was thinking more that if the public forest estate should be 'open to all' then that would include off-roaders, motorbikers, quad riders, bushcrafters, campers, paintballers, airsofters, airgunners, rough shooters, firewood scavengers, foragers; the list could go on and on.
The FC struggle coping with trying to manage forestry and recreation as it is, and that's with the relatively low impact use of walkers, horse riding, and cycling (though certain quarters of the mountain bike community are certainly anything but low impact). 'Open to all' would just be a complete mess. And just remember folks, although the FC is a large landowner/manager, the area constitutes a very small percentage of the total woodland cover in England, and that's a country with one of the lowest percentage of woodland in Europe; so it's not much ground for a lot of people and their pursuits.
Wolfie
The FC struggle coping with trying to manage forestry and recreation as it is, and that's with the relatively low impact use of walkers, horse riding, and cycling (though certain quarters of the mountain bike community are certainly anything but low impact). 'Open to all' would just be a complete mess. And just remember folks, although the FC is a large landowner/manager, the area constitutes a very small percentage of the total woodland cover in England, and that's a country with one of the lowest percentage of woodland in Europe; so it's not much ground for a lot of people and their pursuits.
Wolfie
countrryboy
Well-Known Member
Who owns the ground in Victorias NP's??
National Park's in the UK are owned by private individuals and to be honest I bet most folk that live in 1 just think there a PITA, extra rules and reg's andloadsoftourists getting in the way and leaving gates open
A very good post Lupus
PS Was going to say great minds think alike, but I definitely wouldn't describe my mind as 'great'
