Mode of death

[rodkayak]

Interested in your experiences
I used to have a 308 but had a Sikka stag run after the bullet went through both lungs, one kidney & lodged under the skin of the contralateral flank. It ran 200 m downhill then 200 m into forestry. I found it in the morning after a fretful night.
I thus changed to a 25-06 which was flat shooting and did drop them on the spot but was very destructive in terms of edible meat. It was horrible to shoot without a moderator & even managed to smash the windscreen of my 4x4 by firing off the bonnet.
I thus choose the middle ground with a 6.5x55

I understand bullets kill quickly by sending a hydraulic shock wave via the blood to vital centers of the hindbrain. The brain can auto regulate minor changes in Blood Pressure but a bullet strike is like a JCB, with its ram half extended running into something with its bucket, this peaks the Hydraulic pressure. Studies with pigs shot in the haunch show that they stroke out with a pressure wave in the brain.
If you shot a deer with a musket ball through the lungs, it will die, as the oxygen levels to its brain fall but you will not get a 'drop on the spot' as there is no high velocity pressure wave.
What are your experiences please?

 

[caorach]

This has been done to death previously but, in short, my experiences are that there is no realiable peer reviewed science to support claims of mysterious pressure waves being a reliable way to kill something. If mysterious pressure waves were a reliable method of killing deer then there would be no need for a carefully aimed shot: it would be sufficient to shoot your target in the rear leg, or ear, and the mythical forces of doom would cause it to drop dead.

So, while some may claim to believe in such magical forces and, indeed, there is fairly good anacdotal evidence for their existance, I suspect that their belief is weak as the very same people aim to hit the heart/lungs or CNS when shooting. When they start shooting for the ear, or left rear leg, with proven success then I will give further consideration to the theories.

Until the science indicates otherwise I will continue to believe that shooting a hole in a vital organ causing, in the case of heart/lungs, rapid loss of blood pressure is the only reliable route to humane shooting of a deer.

 

[Sam]

My first deer rifle was a .243, It shot 100grn soft points very well. I think in its rather short life it probably dropped about 50 deer, all to heart/lung aimed shots. It killed deer and (touch wood) I never had a wounded beast to date. However they tend to run a bit, anywhere between 5-100m - to date I have only ever lost one beast, and that was dead (saw the bullet hit, the way it ran and type of paint at the spot show it as a H/L shot) or as near as I could say. Unfourtunatly he took of into the thickest bit of plantation on the place, I tracked him until dark. Then the following morning walking over the whole plantation, we saw no signess of living deer, let alone wounded ones. That was shot at 150m (ish) with the .243.

I soon after purchased a .308 for the larger species, my farther only shot one deer with it before the zero started to wander, so cant really comment but that deer (a wounded red) dropped like a ton of bricks on the spot. It was probably 25 years old so had shot many deer previous to my ownership.

I have a Tikka Lite/Stainless 6.5x55swed due to arrive on the first of June. This will be my deer rifle, both the .243 and .308 were sold, for all species of UK deer, and hopefully boar too soon. I went for a 6.5 because I like the calibre very much - Having seen/shot beasts with my farthers gun in the same calibre it seems to "poleaxe" them, and I dont think he has had a beast run yet (hasnt had it that long... and it will probably happen soon) out of maybe 10 deer he has shot. I subscribe to the Heavier bullet going slower arguemnet for both dropping deer quickly and minimal meat damage.I think the damage from a 6.5 is very different to that of a smaller faster bullet - It tends to punch a big hole, with little bruising/boiled blood. Whereas my .243 was punching a small entry hole and a medium exit hole, with lots of boiled blood/bruising (down to hydraulic shock).


As for what kills them technically I have little knowledge, and as long as the beast dies as quickly as possible with as little fuss I dont really mind. I remember reading somewhere though that at 70m a .58 Calibre Musket ball fired through a "Kentucky" (I think) Rifle was just as effective as a Nosler Partition .270 bullet. Food for thought.


Great idea for a thread, I will be interested what some of our more knowledgeable members put.


Sam

 

[flytie]

Rod, I think there is a lot of uncertainty about kinetics etc. when people start talking about what actually kills the beast you shoot. This is a good article;

http://www.chuckhawks.com/rifle_killing_power.htm

But this explains the process as well as anything I have read;

http://www.chuckhawks.com/energy_transfer.htm

I have recently watched Mike Robinsons (the TV chef) new DVD on stalking red deer. In it the stalker uses a .308 and drops deer on the spot, Mr Robinson uses a .243 and the deer he shoots run. I would think .308 is one of the most popular calibres in the world for medium sized quarry including boar, I do think that not all bullets perform as well as we expect. I would not worry about using a .308!

Saying that I have a 6.5x55 and like it because it has good sectional density and has a proven history (since 1889 I think?) of being able to do the job well. But unless you use 120gn bullets (or less) you are not going to drive them any faster than a standard load out of a .308.

I think any of the mid range calibres are all more than capable of taking deer effectively with good shot placement, sometimes my heart lung shots on fallow drop them on the spot, sometimes they run. Mainly I think it is if they have seen me and are spooked, full of adreniline, that they are more likely to run. I have yet to have a roe run any distance at all. This may be because on the smaller body of the roe is more prone to the shock wave you mention, rather than the larger bodied fallow.

All I can say is, after going out stalking with a friend who uses a 7mm-08, I have put in a variation for a 7mm rifle too. I am very impressed by them.

ft

Edit; I have just read Sam's piece above and his point about the old fashioned calibres is a point well made! Lew Potter regularly uses his Ruger No1 in 45-70 for taking fallow deer, very effectively I might add.

 

[pheasant sniper 1]

Interested in your experiences
I used to have a 308 but had a Sikka stag run after the bullet went through both lungs, one kidney & lodged under the skin of the contralateral flank. It ran 200 m downhill then 200 m into forestry. I found it in the morning after a fretful night.
I thus changed to a 25-06 which was flat shooting and did drop them on the spot but was very destructive in terms of edible meat. It was horrible to shoot without a moderator & even managed to smash the windscreen of my 4x4 by firing off the bonnet.
I thus choose the middle ground with a 6.5x55

I understand bullets kill quickly by sending a hydraulic shock wave via the blood to vital centers of the hindbrain. The brain can auto regulate minor changes in Blood Pressure but a bullet strike is like a JCB, with its ram half extended running into something with its bucket, this peaks the Hydraulic pressure. Studies with pigs shot in the haunch show that they stroke out with a pressure wave in the brain.
If you shot a deer with a musket ball through the lungs, it will die, as the oxygen levels to its brain fall but you will not get a 'drop on the spot' as there is no high velocity pressure wave.
What are your experiences please?

Hi rodkayak

I recon there would be some very happy and very rich gunsmiths out there if everybody that had a Sika stag run on a good engine room shot changed their rifle..

If you shoot a good few you will get a runner on pretty much any calibre at some point..

Lot of respect for the sika, tough and resilient.

ATB

Terry

 

[The Mole]

I used to have a 308 but had a Sikka stag run after the bullet went through both lungs, one kidney & lodged under the skin of the contralateral flank. It ran 200 m downhill then 200 m into forestry.

Putting aside all talk of ballistics and hydraulic shock (which are very important factors in clean kills), it's a fact that sika stags are especially robust and can 'carry the lead' even if well hit with a larger bullet that has performed properly. Was yours aware of you when you took the shot? If so, it was probably poised to run anyway and your chances of an instant knock-down would have been greatly reduced.

Even the smallest deer can run when well hit. I've had a roebuck, which I believe was totally unaware of my presence, sprint 100m with its heart completely shattered before dropping dead. Even though the animal is clinically dead, its body may refuse to accept this and muscle memory takes over until the systems fail completely.

 

[Dalua]

My limited experience of Sika deer, particularly in woods, is that they are inclined to run more strongly than other deer after non-recoverable wounds to the thorax. Your experience of a 200m run does not surprise me, and if it's any comfort, I feel sure that the Sika had a markedly less fretful night than you had!

While your concern to abvoid suffering is laudable, I think if I had changed calibre after every deer that went for a bit run I'd have been through them all by now.

As has been pointed out, there are numerous lengthy threads where various theories are bandied about:
http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?4239
http://www.thestalkingdirectory.co.uk/showthread.php?9254
for example.

I like this set of essays www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

I share caorach's scepticism with regard to the mysterious pressure waves, and I'd point out at once that a mammal does not in any meaningful way resemble the hydraulic system of a JCB, a 2l bottle of water with the lid screwed on, or indeed ballistic test media.

Enjoy the debate!

Dalua

 

[admin]

True this type of thread has been commented on many times in the forum. However the site is here to help everyone.

In my experience with Sika, and I have hunted them and managed (tried ) over the past 25 years, they are as Pheasant Sniper reported very tough deer, especially the Stags when the rut is on. Do not be suprised if they still run with your 6.5x55. Thats not to say its a bad round for Sika, its just to say that Sika are that way inclined.

I have seen them taken with just about most calibres including 300win mag, 338, 30.06 and they are dead on their feet but still manage to run off. So do not be suprised if this happens again when you stalk Sika. Because belive me it will happen.

ATB

Sikamalc

 

[User00004]

I have met a couple of people who when shooting Sika will shoot throught the front shoulders to ensure they don't run, the shock generated will 99% of the time kill then, but like everything else you might not get that humane kill as you wished but atleast you won't have a runner and can dispatch quickley.

Sika are known Hard Bas****s, and will put a fight. I have shot several predominantley with my .243, 100gr soft point, Heart/Lung or neck and have been lucky not to have had a runner/lost deer.

You could shoot 5 deer, all lined up in the same way, same body weight, same shot placement. They will all react differently. There is no given science on this.

I have seen a video clip af a bloke shoot a Roe Buck, it was rutting with another Buck, once shot, it ran probably just under 200m, the camera man kept the camera on it, unbelievable to see, and wouldn't have thought it possable, OK, it was pumped with adrenalin from rutting, but still very interesting to see.

TJ

 

[Orion]

I recon there would be some very happy and very rich gunsmiths out there if everybody that had a Sika stag run on a good engine room shot changed their rifle..

If you shoot a good few you will get a runner on pretty much any calibre at some point..

Lot of respect for the sika, tough and resilient.

Can't fault any of that. IMHO only one thing is certain after the bullet strike - expect the unexpected. Plus of course, be prepared to deal with it!

 

[Brithunter]

Interested in your experiences
I used to have a 308 but had a Sikka stag run after the bullet went through both lungs, one kidney & lodged under the skin of the contralateral flank. It ran 200 m downhill then 200 m into forestry. I found it in the morning after a fretful night.
I thus changed to a 25-06 which was flat shooting and did drop them on the spot but was very destructive in terms of edible meat. It was horrible to shoot without a moderator & even managed to smash the windscreen of my 4x4 by firing off the bonnet.
I thus choose the middle ground with a 6.5x55

I understand bullets kill quickly by sending a hydraulic shock wave via the blood to vital centers of the hindbrain. The brain can auto regulate minor changes in Blood Pressure but a bullet strike is like a JCB, with its ram half extended running into something with its bucket, this peaks the Hydraulic pressure. Studies with pigs shot in the haunch show that they stroke out with a pressure wave in the brain.
If you shot a deer with a musket ball through the lungs, it will die, as the oxygen levels to its brain fall but you will not get a 'drop on the spot' as there is no high velocity pressure wave.
What are your experiences please?

You probably won't like this reply ...................... but that's OK I have a pretty thick skin If having a beast run is causing you such worry then you had better pack in stalking and find another hobby/sport/pastime because deer running at the shot are going to happen . Stika so I understand are rather good at clinging on to the spark of life.

It also seems your understanding of the mechanics of the bullets work is woefully lacking. The hydraulic shock you speak of can only happen in certain instances and if you wish so learn more about the way in which bullets work in the kiling of quarry beasts may i suggest you look out and beg/borrow/ steal or even buy a book called:-

"The Perfect Shot"

Sadly it deals with African game but it's an excellent read and with superb photos and goes into depth about bullet perfomance.

Now to get more drop to shots you need to catch the quarry unawares, if the beast suspects something and is suspicious then it's keyed up ready to run, it's the natural flight reflex of prey animals and the hit of the bullet triggers this response. I have had a few beasts run at the shot and one a Muntjac doe would not have been found without the aid of the stalkers dog and it still took an hour even though we knew it was in a small area. She dived under some young Christmas trees and was invisable. Some deer do not drop when everything logically says they should. I put Four 139 grain 7mm bullets through a Whitetailed Deer Button Bucks head at least than 40 yards before he expired. In fact he got up three times the head was in such a mess we had to put it in a plastic bag to take it to the checking station. As a result I will not take a head shot now.

Just think of the hydraulics involved in that one the first bullet entered side ways on between eye and ear the second just right of centre from behind and exited below the right eye, the third entered below left ear and exited just behind the right eye and number four entered from below as althoguh the beast got to his feet he could not lift his head so i knelt and fired under his chest and the bullet toop most of the top of the skull off. Velocity was a shade over 2800fps.

The quickest drop to shot for me have been where the bullet takes out the top of the heart and the lower lungs on an unaware beast. The same shot on the 9 Point Whiteail Buck resulted in a 60 yard run, but he saw or sensed me in the stand and when he stopped about 12 feet short of the creek bank I shot a second time as I didn't fancy trying to haul his carcase up the shear sided 6 foot high bank. The second bullet was recovered under the hide of his left shoulder having entered just behind the last rib on the right. On his run he left a blood trail a drunken blind man could have followed and each bound a fan of blood sprayed out.

With heart shots beasts expire from lack of blood flow to the brain, with higher lung shots not only do you stop or severly reduce the flow of oxygen to the brain the lungs and chest cavity fill up with blood so stopping the lungs functioning. If the correct heart chambers are hit when they are full just before pumping the blood to the brain then hydraulic shock can cause a massive stroke which kills like lightening same goes for hitting the correct point of the spinal column. Niether of which are practical to rely upon.

The choice of bullet can make a huge difference, the worst blood shot carcase I had to deal with was a Roe Doe shot at about 90 yards using the 6.5x55 with the 160 grain Hornady RN bullet .

 

[Sam]

A good bullet for most CXP2 class game, such as deer, goats, antelope and sheep, should optimally expand to approximately twice its original diameter and create a wide wound channel that destroys the maximum amount of tissue on its way through the animal's lungs. A bullet that fragments inside the vitals and scatters bits of lead and jacket material all through the animal's heart/lung area will kill quicker than one which creates a long, narrow wound channel through the lungs and exits the far side. But the bullet must not fragment before reaching the vitals, which is why varmint bullets are not suitable for shooting even the smaller species of big game. For light framed CXP2 class animals, a quick expanding bullet that dumps the maximum amount of energy into the heart/lung area usually gives the quickest kills.
The Federal Soft Point; Hornady SST and Interlock; Norma Soft Point, Nosler Ballistic Tip and Solid Base; Remington Bronze Point, AccuTip and Core-Lokt; Sierra Pro-Hunter and Game King; Speer Hot-Core; and Winchester Power Point, Power Point Plus, Silvertip and Ballistic Silvertip bullets all deliver the rapid expansion necessary for quick kills on medium size animals. These bullets are a particularly good choice for a standard velocity rifle, and are suitable for magnum rifles in the heavier weights, particularly at long range. They also kill large CXP3 class game quite well with broadside lung shots, but are less effective if they hit heavy bones or must penetrate the paunch on their way to the vitals.
The Remington Core-Lokt, Federal Fusion, and Winchester Silvertip enjoy a reputation for deeper penetration than most conventional bullets and are considered a good choice for the tougher species of CXP2 game such as black bear and wild hogs. They are also often used on mixed bag hunts that may include CXP3 class game. Ballistic gelatin tests have indicated that conventional soft point bullets such as the Barnes Original, Hornady Interlock, Speer Hot-Cor, and Sierra Pro Hunter offer good penetration and expansion--about on a par with most of the premium bullets--at moderate impact velocities around 2,000 fps.

Brithunter - another great reply, nice to see youre not a fan of head shooting.



Sam

 

[Orion]

I like this set of essays www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

Thanks for that link - very interesting. I particularly like this comment:

"It is not the energy itself that kills, it is the character of the work done by it."

 

[David Brown]

A while back someone wrote in to comment that they were unhappy with the agressive and rude tone some posters were taking in their replies to questions. I had to agree with him. I have met many excellent lads through this site and have given a lot of folk chances to stalk unfamiliar species of deer to them. This has been very rewarding.
I was disappointed to read comments directed at the starter of this thread telling him to give up stalking and describing his knowledge as woefully lacking. That from someone who then shows his own shortcomings and ineptitude by admitting to needing to put 4 shots into the head of a deer to kill it. I hope the antis arnt reading this. David

 

[rodkayak]

It also seems your understanding of the mechanics of the bullets work is woefully lacking.
I feel that I have a fair understanding on how bullets work. I worked as A&E Dr in N Ireland during the troubles and dealt with plenty of GSWs( Gunshot wounds). The reason the deer you shot 4 times in the head did not drop straight away was that a mamalian head has many air filled sinuses. These will not allow the bullet to transmit energy in the same manner as if it had hit water based tissue. If the animal ran with a head wound, I think that most stalkers in this country would follow up with chest shots & not have repeatedly shot at the head.
I admit that I have a lot to learn as I have only shot 60 deer and am very inexperienced.
Regarding the point that I should give up shooting if I cannot face stomach wounding one. This is like saying I should give up being a Dr as I may miss a diagnosis, or give the wrong treatment sometimes. I accept the fact that I will miss a vital area sometimes & sometimes even miss altogether; no matter how good a shot I am. I accept this in the same manner that I know that I will occasionaly wound wildfowl. My point is that I want to keep it TO A MINIMUM.
I have learnt a lot from some of the contributers & thank them very much. Especially David Brown!
Dr Robert Boulton

 

[bbrc]

When I changed rifle from 243 to 6.5x55 I found that deer showed a much greater reaction to the shot with the 6.5 than with the 243. I shot 85 or 100 grain bullets through the 243 and 100gn through the 6.5, more than twice the number of beasts dropped on the spot with the 6.5 than with the 243. This was with Roe and Sika.

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

I try to stay out of these discussions, but will join in this one for the hell of it.
To go back to the basic's there are two ways to quickly/efficiently kill a deer with a rifle bullet, all the points I am about to make presume shot placement is adequate:

1. Shot to the CNS, destroy the brain, or cut the spinal cord in front of the shoulders.

2. Shot to the heart/lungs, make holes in the plumbing causing a loss of blood and/or blood pressure, in turn, the deer will bleed out and die.

Number 1 will result in instanteous incapacitation and death.

Number 2 will also often result in instaneous collapse and death. But sometimes it does not. Sometimes the deer will run on for anything from 10 to 200 yards before collapsing. The question is how, or by what mechanism can we ensure that the deer we shoot end up DRT (dead right there).

Suppose you shoot a deer with a 308 and a 150gr FMJ military bullet at 2900fps. What happens? The bullet makes a hole through the vitals, the deer probably does not drop instantly, runs on for some distance before eventually collapsing and dying of blood loss. Many people have survived hits to one lung from a bullet of this type.

Shoot the same deer with a 100gr BT from a 243, or a 120gr BT from a 6.5, both again at 2900FPS. I am sure most of us would expect that we would drop the deer within a very short distance, if not on the spot.

So what is different? The 308 has passed through the vitals, has not expanded, has exited the beast probably still doing a fair speed, retaining a lot of it's kinetic energy. Whereas, the smaller expanding bullets will have transfered a lot of their energy into the beast. These bullets will have expanded significantly, possibly fragmented also scattering shards of bullet through the vitals, and in some cases not exited at all "dumping" most or of all their energy into the animal.

I have no peer reviewed evidence for "hydrostatic shock". But I have seen in excess of a 100 deer shot with a variety of calibres, but mainly 243 and 270. Yes, no doubt, bigger is better. However, common sense and observation tell me that when an expanding bullet is delivered to a deer's vitals the incapacitation of that deer results from more than just having a hole drilled through it. Kinetic energy must be transfered from that fast moving, rapidly expanding bullet into that animal.

Now having said all that, Sika are tough brutes. I have shot Sika perfectly through heart, lungs, shoulder etc, with a 270win and 130gr BT's, and they still have hoofed it 80-120 yards into the dirtiest darkest bog hole in county Tyrone.

I shot a Muntjac buck a few months ago, perfect heart shot with a 308/165 gr Barnes TSX through the chest, he ran off looking uninjured, I found him 50 yards away, looked like he had been drilled with a black and decker. The next morning, I shot a muntjac doe with a 120gr Sierra a 260rem, she did not move an inch, simly fell over without a twitch.

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

Dr Boulton, to properly address your question, the choice of bullet will have more effect on the deer than a fraction of a millimetre diameter or a fraction of a gram of bullet weight.

The 6.5x55 will kill any deer ever born, I would suggest you try a lightish faster bullet. If you handload, make some ammo up with 120gr bullets. If you buy your ammo, order/buy Norma 120gr nosler ballistic tips for the 6.5 and use these for a season or two and reflect on the results.

Sika stag will always run, end of story.

 

[willie_gunn]

There was another thread on runners a while back - it's obviously another of those subjects that I need to drop into the stack for the Rant-o-miser

Looking back, MarkH gave this explanation as to why a deer that has lost it's vitals can still run. I think his point is well worth remembering:

Hi

The reason a beast can run for 10seconds at full pelt has nothing to do with pumping blood. Its ATP breakdown in the muscles during anaerobic respiration. This is why a sprinter does not need to breath to run 100m. They need to breath to recover.
As long as the nervous system is intact to co-ordinate the muscles they can run minus heart and lungs for 10s or so. Hence shaking and quivering on a downed animal with a head/spine shot, the muscles are working but not in a coordinated fashion.

Mark

I've thought of this several times when I've gralloched a deer to find heart and lungs beyond recognition. I have shot a fair number of deer - more than some but less than others - and the only conclusion I've been able to draw about deer so far is "don't draw conclusions". I tend to re-write my personal "rules for stalking" after each shot, on the basis that the deer don't read the books so are likely to do the unexpected.

I don't take headshots, but that's just a personal thing, so all my observations are based on engine room and (occasional) neck shots with a .308, but I've had roe, muntjac, fallow and red run when I didn't expect it. But they've also dropped on the spot when I didn't expect it.

rodkayak - I am intrigued by your obervation that "Studies with pigs shot in the haunch show that they stroke out with a pressure wave in the brain". Do you have a link for this research by any chance as I'd be interested to have a read? A pressure wave to the brain, depending upon how it's transmitted, would make sense, at least in some cases.

willie_gunn

 

[Dan Gliballs]

*I put Four 139 grain 7mm bullets through a Whitetailed Deer Button Bucks head at least than 40 yards before he expired. In fact he got up three times

*As a result I will not take a head shot now.

*

*That might be a good idea