Negligent Discharge

[8x57]

You don't think having ammunition in it while parked up in the hangar was negligent?

It's common for aircraft to be armed in hangers or aircraft shelters. When they are armed they are normally separated and not aligned so that they are pointing at one another, a lesson learned at high cost by the Americans on an air base in Vietnam during that war. Arming an aircraft isn't as quick and easy as slipping a few rounds into a stalking rifle when you get to your stalking area.

 

[camodog]

Just read the 'small print'. Appears there is a new level of 'responsibility'.........'mistakenly opened fire' ! ('Get out clause' ) I guess that's ok then !

 

[Wessex4291]

It's common for aircraft to be armed in hangers or aircraft shelters. When they are armed they are normally separated and not aligned so that they are pointing at one another, a lesson learned at high cost by the Americans on an air base in Vietnam during that war. Arming an aircraft isn't as quick and easy as slipping a few rounds into a stalking rifle when you get to your stalking area.

I agree that it isn’t a quick process to load ammunition on an aircraft, but only know of aircraft being armed and stored if they are held at very short notice to effect. I would expect there to be a number of Typhoons that are currently armed in a hangar somewhere in the UK, to enable them to swiftly intercept hostile incursions to UK airspace Mar 2020 - Russian incursion or hijacked aircraft, but almost beyond belief that there is a requirement to maintain an Apache at this state in the UK.


The Sun gives a slightly different story which would suggest that the Apache was not correctly unloaded after experiencing a malfunction before flying to Wattisham.

 

[Yorkie]

I know nothing of how the military operates helicopter weapons systems so just asking a question.

Is it ok to keep the helicopter with a 30mm round 'up the spout'? For all i know it may be.

I suspect someone just f****d up as humans do.

The USS Forrestal had an incident when a parked jet fired a missile that hit other jets. 134 sailors killed. Scary stuff.

 

[Wessex4291]

It's not normal for an aircraft to be loaded unless for a particular reason. The reason would have to a particular task that could not be achieved of the aircraft had to be loaded before starting the task.

For Apache this would normally be a standby Close Air Support (providing troops on the ground with overwhelming fire support to overcome an enemy force) or as seen in Afghanistan as an escort to medevac Chinooks.

 

[Woodsmoke]

In my time as an RAF armourer, any aircraft with live munitions was comprehensively marked with 'Aircraft Armed' flags and parked with its nose facing a designated safe area. The only exceptions were QRA aircraft, but they mere always manned and ready to go at a moments notice anyway. Glad nobody was hurt!

 

[Pedro]

Call it accidental or negligent or whatever, there will be a reason for the discharge. In this case, it appears not to be operator error. Perhaps being loaded when it shouldn’t have been is a factor. But a weapon that goes off by itself is patently faulty. So the manufacturers, fitters or servicing personnel might be to blame. Let’s face it, if your stalking rifle kept going off randomly when loaded, you would be (at best) deeply unhappy with it.

 

[baguio]

Loving the fact that people are commenting on what did or didn't happen based on what the red topped news papers have reported. Give your heads a wobble people.

 

[Sealgair nam fiadh]

Just like the stag video.

 

[Woodsmoke]

Is it ok to keep the helicopter with a 30mm round 'up the spout'?

I never worked on the chain gun on the Apache, but I know it works similar to a revolver, with a rotating cylinder. As the cylinder rotates, it carries an electrically-initiated round into line with the barrel, and a spring-loaded firing pin makes the contact. The round fires, and the recoil mechanism forces the slides rearwards, indexing the cylinder by way of a cam to bring another round into contact with the firing pin, and the cycle continues until interrupted by the firing pin circuit being broken. I guess it's possible that a mechanical issue caused the cylinder to index, and a static discharge between the pin and round caused it to fire? Who knows? Guess an inquiry will reveal exactly what happened

 

[8x57]

Woodsmoke you may not have worked on the Hughes chain gun but it certainly sounds like you are familiar with the Aden gun.

 

[Woodsmoke]

Woodsmoke you may not have worked on the Hughes chain gun but it certainly sounds like you are familiar with the Aden gun.

Very! I used to service the Aden, and then it's replacement Mauser 27mm. Both very similar in how they operate. The best one was the 20mm Vulcan that our Phantoms carried. That was some piece of kit!

 

[8x57]

I never came across the 27mm Mauser, it was only just being introduced on the MRCA (Tornado) as I was undergoing trade training at Halton. I did do some training on the Aden and the Vulcan gun pack.

 

[Woodsmoke]

I never came across the 27mm Mauser, it was only just being introduced on the MRCA (Tornado) as I was undergoing trade training at Halton. I did do some training on the Aden and the Vulcan gun pack.

Biggest change between the Mauser and the Aden was a recocking mechanism that cycled the action if a round failed to fire. It was a cartridge-operated cylinder that pushed the slides back. I can't remember how many times it could do it though. I want to say six, but part of me is thinking three It was longer back than I care to think about

 

[8x57]

It was longer back than I care to think about

Yep a long time ago and in another lifetime.
I just wish that I could go back and make some different decisions. There again I would probably make exactly the same mistakes all over again, you can't change human nature.

 

[Rhodesianjess]

Sounds like I'm even older than you guys! Our Alouette choppers in Rhodesia had twin 20 mm Oerlikon mounted port side.
Nasty if you were on the ground and they let them off in your vicinity!

 

[8x57]

I remember the Army Air Corps (British army) still using Alouettes. I can't remember if they armed them but if they did they probably would have used the .30 calibre Browning the same as the Royal Marines used on the Sioux at the time. Twin Oerlikons would be quite a step up from the Brownings.

 

[Rhodesianjess]

With sanctions against us,we used what we could get our hands on. Lots of kit from South Africa and Israel.
My fal had British proof marks and most ammo,7.62 by 51, had imi headstamps.
Some choppers had french writing in cabins and dial faces, presume Indo China surplus?

 

[Automan]

That's there fac revoked

 

[Woodsmoke]

I just wish that I could go back and make some different decisions

Yep, me too. Apart from Alison Philpot and Yvonne Wight. Ah, good times