New VED Rates
- Thread starter Morkai
- Start date
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
So its not hypocritical to fly all around the world to gain fame and fortune whilst depositing tonnes of CO2 in the upper atmosphere? I'm afraid that we must agree to differ on this.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I can't stand the pompous self righteous g....ent.
Because they're pool cars, a police officer might have a car for his shift, drop it back to the station, head home in their personal car and then officer starting their shift in 20 minutes time will take it out. It doesn't leave any time to charge it, which doesn't suit emergency services who need vehicles ready to go, 24/7, to deal with life and death situations on no notice. Much more sensible to have a petrol/diesel that they can fill up in a few minutes.
EVs are good but like most things, they have a time and a place. They aren't the ideal choice for every scenario but they're good for the average commuter
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
EVs are not good.
They are extremely bad for the environment.
They need massive open mining.
Said mining uses massive plant that runs on oil.
They are much heavier and prone to self destruction from a known unstable power format.
There is no means of safe scrappage.
It's unfortunate that people like to simplify their view of everything, they just end up getting a dam good spanking by those that tell them what they want to hear!
They are extremely bad for the environment.
They need massive open mining.
Said mining uses massive plant that runs on oil.
They are much heavier and prone to self destruction from a known unstable power format.
There is no means of safe scrappage.
It's unfortunate that people like to simplify their view of everything, they just end up getting a dam good spanking by those that tell them what they want to hear!
timbrayford
Well-Known Member
And don't forget that Chinese EVs may run on electric but they are made by coal, how is that environmentally friendly?
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
I was talking to a Bavarian autobahn policeman who live in our village last night and the subject of EVs came up along with 9mm MPs in every car being the norm now. He said they had tried out a BMW iX1 for non critical duties (like visiting after the event burglaries) and the time wasted charging it was just not acceptable.
They have Audi Q3 suvs and BMW5 estates all in diesel for autobahn duty for a normal shift of between 350-400kms, nobody wants to use the Audi as it has too much power available for the short/high chassis which makes them feel spooky when chasing naughties.
They have Audi Q3 suvs and BMW5 estates all in diesel for autobahn duty for a normal shift of between 350-400kms, nobody wants to use the Audi as it has too much power available for the short/high chassis which makes them feel spooky when chasing naughties.
I think the right way to look at it is Cradle to Grave which is the whole lifecycle, including how much pollution is generated from making the car, how much pollution is generated from the car itself and the electricity/petrol that it needs to run, and how much pollution does it create to deal with the recycling and waste products of the car at the end of its life.
Yes, an electric car manufacturered in China creates more pollution to manufacture than one in Europe or the US, for exactly reasons like timbrayford and Smellydog mentioned. And yet over the lifetime of the car, that Chinese electric car still produces less emissions than a combustion engine car in pretty much every study on it.
Smellydog
Well-Known Member
I think that is a very simplistic view sorry.
It matters not where the EV is made.
From cradle to grave as you put it the ev is far worse for the environment.
There is no means of recycling and ev, real vehicles yes.
Emissions, stop emissions tomorrow from any source and the earth will continue to warm up.
Just because we are told it's warming up due to mankind does not even if it were true mean we should panic and make things worse like clinging to a white elephant!
tackb
Well-Known Member
it's not cars , it's cows farting !
No, cradle to grave the EV is better for the environment than a combustion engine car.
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Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
But what if existing ICEs were just re engineered to allow further usage in emission low zones thereby extending the end of life by another 10-12 years? Like the 50 y/o Land Rovers still crawling about.
Only if you include every molecule of CO2 emitted during production, operation & scrappage/recycling of the ICE and ignore most of the CO2 emitted during extraction of all the rare earth minerals etc necessary for production of the EV
Full life "cradle to grave" emissions etc for even small "efficient" (the mythical beast) EV's are FAR worse than ICE vehicles
And, as has been said, EV's aren't easily recyclable - indeed many parts of them aren't recyclable or reuseable at all, just like that other green con known as wind turbines
Rake Aboot
Well-Known Member
I’d love to see your source for that
Mining the minerals for a battery compared to drilling the oil for a lifetimes fuel !
Somehow I don’t believe you on that one
To be fair to Jeep, they didn't put their vehicle of the list, it was the commies, aka HMG, who did that
The Wrangler Rubicon just exceeds the threshold CO2 emissions level for the new tax - which surprised me, I thought it would have lower emissions than that
However, owners of such vehicles would likely be a target for punishment by the urbanite lefties for drivng a 4x4 anyway as 4x4's and their owners seem to be particularly despised by lefties.
Unless it's Mayor Khan or other senior Labour figures in their Range Rovers of course
You said earlier that you worked offshore, so I'm surprised that you're unaware of just how efficient O&G production can be in terms of energy produced v's energy consumed during E&P activities
Mining is considerably less efficient (I've worked in both O&G & Precious minerals E&P), and REM ores are akin to precious metals ores, ie exceedingly low concentrations - parts per billion sort of stuff, plus you have to either move masses of overburden or dig to considerable depths to reach them. All very energy intensive activities and that's just to reach the ores, which aren't useable products at this point, so the emissions have only just kicked off
Then you have to dig them out and get them to the surfce or into one place at least
(Even copper ores to make wiring etc aren't easy to find in extractable quantities or concentrations - but at least copper is reuseale/recyclable)
The ores then have to be bulk transported for processing - more energy useage, and don't forget, they're not energy-dense hydrocarbons, you're talking BULK low concentration ie thousands & thousands of tonnes of ore even at this stage
The extraction & purification processing is again extremely energy intensive and typically outrageously polluting in ways not merely limited to CO2 emissions - even extraction of lithium from brines, often touted as "green" requires mind-bogglingly enormous amounts of electricity = loads more CO2, however that electricity is produced
Thereafter the refined products have to be transported to where they will be processed into batteries, cabling etc etc - again, all very energy intensive and potentially polluting processes
Then you end up with a product which still needs energy to work, and whether that energy derives from hydrocarbons or allegedly green alternatives it still produces CO2 by the gigatonne
Then varoius bits of the the EV aren't recyclable at all, and/or very difficult (ie polluting and/or energy intensive/expensive) to recycle
O&G is simpler and cheaper, higher reward for less effort, that's why we did it for so long
You can find my assertions hard to believe if you wish, but CO2 emisions in FULL life cycle of anything "green" - whether it's EV's, turbines, solar panels, hydrogen cells or whatever - mean that few, if any, of them will ever manage to come close to saving the CO2 emissions that it took to make them
You're clearly a smart guy, working offshore indicates at least some level of smarts, so - go read up on "full cycle" emissions & energy useage of various industrial processes - lots of ideological BS & entrenched positions, vested interests and all such crap ON BOTH SIDES of the "debate" as you would expect in such a contoversial subject, but it's all a horror story
This happens in conventional car fires too but still doesn't stop people driving them.
Full cradle to grave sums including mineral extraction, transport, manufacturing, recycling, etc would beg to differ. These arent cherry picked sums, nothing conveniently ignored.
(Ignore the future columns as that's just speculation, the "current" numbers are as of 2020)
Yes, they take more work to make and are harder to recycle, and when you add all of that up, they still end up producing less emissions over the life of a vehicle than a combustion engine vehicle.
I appreciate the detail you gave about the processed in oil and gas above, thats interesting stuff. If you get some time have read of this study. It's quite lengthy but it goes into good detail what numbers they're using to calculate mineral extraction, fuel usage, manufacturing, etc and how they got to said numbers
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