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royalewithcheese said:
I think the right way to look at it is Cradle to Grave which is the whole lifecycle, including how much pollution is generated from making the car, how much pollution is generated from the car itself and the electricity/petrol that it needs to run, and how much pollution does it create to deal with the recycling and waste products of the car at the end of its life.

Yes, an electric car manufacturered in China creates more pollution to manufacture than one in Europe or the US, for exactly reasons like timbrayford and Smellydog mentioned. And yet over the lifetime of the car, that Chinese electric car still produces less emissions than a combustion engine car in pretty much every study on it.
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Over 25 years?
 
royalewithcheese said:
Full cradle to grave sums including mineral extraction, transport, manufacturing, recycling, etc would beg to differ. These arent cherry picked sums, nothing conveniently ignored.
View attachment 397830
(Ignore the future columns as that's just speculation, the "current" numbers are as of 2020)
Yes, they take more work to make and are harder to recycle, and when you add all of that up, they still end up producing less emissions over the life of a vehicle than a combustion engine vehicle.

I appreciate the detail you gave about the processed in oil and gas above, thats interesting stuff. If you get some time have read of this study. It's quite lengthy but it goes into good detail what numbers they're using to calculate mineral extraction, fuel usage, manufacturing, etc and how they got to said numbers

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i just don't believe any of this stuff anymore , fed up of twisted data to support ev's

i'm not saying this is wrong or twisted but i am fed up of the changing goal posts and 'academics' supporting the CO2 narrative , it just doesn't all add up to my simple mind.
 
Rake Aboot said:
I’d love to see your source for that
Mining the minerals for a battery compared to drilling the oil for a lifetimes fuel !
Somehow I don’t believe you on that one
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Mining the tonnes and tonnes of earth for the REM's for you EV needs millions of diesel litres!
FFS why are people so happy to ware blinkers!
 
Andrewslater said:
This happens in conventional car fires too but still doesn't stop people driving them.
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Actually no not really.
On a Hollywood set maybe but in real life rarely, certainly not as fierce as ev.

Current petrol and diesel have devices that immediately switch the fuel pump off in the event of an accident. Fuel tanks have to meet stringent requirements today too.
Safety today in a ice car has never been better.

And remember, insurance firms are writing of everything vehicles for what could be repaired if the accident had been in a real car! Why? Because they can not guarantee they are safe any more! No such issue with a real car!

Hey, but you follow the dream 👍🏻
 
tackb said:
i just don't believe any of this stuff anymore , fed up of twisted data to support ev's

i'm not saying this is wrong or twisted but i am fed up of the changing goal posts and 'academics' supporting the CO2 narrative , it just doesn't all add up to my simple mind.
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Quite right, undoubtedly there's an issue with heavier than air gas CO2 in the upper atmosphere but it stretches credibility to blame ICEs at and around ground level. These emissions are used by green plants for photosynthesis or just sink into the ground. What the restrictions on air travel during COVID proved beyond all possible doubt is that carbon fuelled jet aircraft are the prime culprit, depositing CO2 in the upper atmosphere where it's most damaging and keeping it there by the turbulence that it creates. Politicians are reluctant to tackle this issue, preferring to tax the hell out of motorists whilst booking their next flight to a climate change conference instead.
 
royalewithcheese said:
Full cradle to grave sums including mineral extraction, transport, manufacturing, recycling, etc would beg to differ. These arent cherry picked sums, nothing conveniently ignored.
View attachment 397830
(Ignore the future columns as that's just speculation, the "current" numbers are as of 2020)
Yes, they take more work to make and are harder to recycle, and when you add all of that up, they still end up producing less emissions over the life of a vehicle than a combustion engine vehicle.

I appreciate the detail you gave about the processed in oil and gas above, thats interesting stuff. If you get some time have read of this study. It's quite lengthy but it goes into good detail what numbers they're using to calculate mineral extraction, fuel usage, manufacturing, etc and how they got to said numbers

Click to expand...
Ooo a flow chart thingy. I wonder who commissioned it and why, no wait, I'm not interested.
What ever the chart says when you go online and look at the mountains of stationary ev fields slowly rotting that no one knows what to do with that at any minute could spontaneous combust, boom, the emissions go off the scale!
And who said co2 is destroying the planet?
There are many faults in that theory too!
 
What are these lot pumping out? Rose scented oxygen?
volcano.si.edu

Global Volcanism Program | Current Eruptions

There are 44 volcanoes with continuing eruptions as of the Stop Dates provided, and as reported through 19 September 2025. Although detailed statistics are not kept on daily activity, generally there are around 20 volcanoes actively erupting at any particular time. The Smithsonian / USGS Weekly...
volcano.si.edu
 
geoshot said:
You said earlier that you worked offshore, so I'm surprised that you're unaware of just how efficient O&G production can be in terms of energy produced v's energy consumed during E&P activities
Mining is considerably less efficient (I've worked in both O&G & Precious minerals E&P), and REM ores are akin to precious metals ores, ie exceedingly low concentrations - parts per billion sort of stuff, plus you have to either move masses of overburden or dig to considerable depths to reach them. All very energy intensive activities and that's just to reach the ores, which aren't useable products at this point, so the emissions have only just kicked off
Then you have to dig them out and get them to the surfce or into one place at least
(Even copper ores to make wiring etc aren't easy to find in extractable quantities or concentrations - but at least copper is reuseale/recyclable)
The ores then have to be bulk transported for processing - more energy useage, and don't forget, they're not energy-dense hydrocarbons, you're talking BULK low concentration ie thousands & thousands of tonnes of ore even at this stage
The extraction & purification processing is again extremely energy intensive and typically outrageously polluting in ways not merely limited to CO2 emissions - even extraction of lithium from brines, often touted as "green" requires mind-bogglingly enormous amounts of electricity = loads more CO2, however that electricity is produced
Thereafter the refined products have to be transported to where they will be processed into batteries, cabling etc etc - again, all very energy intensive and potentially polluting processes
Then you end up with a product which still needs energy to work, and whether that energy derives from hydrocarbons or allegedly green alternatives it still produces CO2 by the gigatonne
Then varoius bits of the the EV aren't recyclable at all, and/or very difficult (ie polluting and/or energy intensive/expensive) to recycle

O&G is simpler and cheaper, higher reward for less effort, that's why we did it for so long

You can find my assertions hard to believe if you wish, but CO2 emisions in FULL life cycle of anything "green" - whether it's EV's, turbines, solar panels, hydrogen cells or whatever - mean that few, if any, of them will ever manage to come close to saving the CO2 emissions that it took to make them
You're clearly a smart guy, working offshore indicates at least some level of smarts, so - go read up on "full cycle" emissions & energy useage of various industrial processes - lots of ideological BS & entrenched positions, vested interests and all such crap ON BOTH SIDES of the "debate" as you would expect in such a contoversial subject, but it's all a horror story
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First off I appreciate you’re discussing it without getting heated like some 👍

You’re correct about me having brains, working a full career as an REP offshore then nuclear reactor maintenance and refuelling.

Let’s look at what’s being said.
In my view you’re case is fundamentally flawed in the very first 2 sentences.

Two cars are produced, one diesel, one EV
The production of both , excluding the motive force is pretty much the same. So we can negate both and start looking at them from scratch as built ready to use cars. ( I’ll cover the mining shortly)

Now the EV, it uses batteries, these are produced and mining is included in that. This is where your comparison fails.
Mining produced the raw materials for manufacturing
Oil and gas drilling produced energy sources for fuel. The only fair comparison would be with coal mining if cars ran on coal.

The motive force of the EV is electricity, which in most countries is pretty clean and produced using low carbon means including that nuclear I spoke about.

The other vehicles motive force is diesel, which it burns day in day out for its entire life.
In that regards the EV is vastly cleaner than the diesel car, I’m sure you can see this.

Once the mining is done, it’s done, it does not continue to be comparable to the drilling for oil.
Are EV,s as clean as they make out, nope, are they the answer to our issues, nope, are they part of that solution, yup, are the “ cleaner” than internal combustion engines, yup.

Simple fact is would you rather you were shut in a shed with a circling diesel car or a circling EV.

I’m open to anything offered btw, I’m not closed minded, but I do think you’re looking at it in the wrong way.
 
I dont think many people buy EV because they want to save the planet. I thi k they lease them brand new as their compa y car for the tax advantages. I have a hilux, a discovery as a family car and an EV kia parked at the office i use to see clients. I couldn't care less about its stats other than its cheap as chips.
 
LuckyEddie said:
I wonder how many EVs will still be running at 25yrs old?
My Disco Td5 is 23 and hoping to keep it going until I stop driving.
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I guess only time will tell on that one, I retired my last car at 20 years old as the rust on it was about as expensive to fix as the car itself, although I think any car could be kept on the road forever depending on how much you're willing you spend keeping it going!
 
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