Non toxic out and out varmint rounds. What's out there?

[Hairysausagefingers]

I do a tiny bit of stalking, but I shoot a lot of foxes and a fair few rabbits.
I've shot copper through my .243 and know you pin a deer through both shoulders at 200yds and still have joints worth eating.
There is a world of difference between what a barnes TTSS does to fox out of my rifle compared to what a V-Max or Varmageddon does.
What I need help with please is finding a non toxic V-Max equivalent that isn't really a deer bullet pretending to be something else.
I have shot 35gr Hornady NTX (non toxic expanding) with my hornet and they are great. They blow up and act just like V-Max, but that's as heavy as they get. This is the best non toxic bullet I have found for my purposes so far.
Is there anything that works the same as V-Max, Blitzking, Varmageddon in say 50ish grains for my .223 or 70ish grains for my .243?
There must be a demand for V-Max style bullets in the weight ranges I'm talking about because literally millions have been sold.
It just seems really odd to me that the advice coming down the line for varmints is to use what are effectively deer bullets and concenteate on immaculate shot placement at the risk of otherwise drilling our soft skinned friend Mr Fox.
In crude terms I want very big holes in him and I don't want him to run. That seems more humane to me.
What is available please?
1:10 in the .243 and 1:8 in the .223.
Or, do I have to wait until the lead ban arrives and we only rethink varmint bullets when it happens?

 

[r judd]

Try barnes varmint grenade

 

[Lancaster]

I do a tiny bit of stalking, but I shoot a lot of foxes and a fair few rabbits.
I've shot copper through my .243 and know you pin a deer through both shoulders at 200yds and still have joints worth eating.
There is a world of difference between what a barnes TTSS does to fox out of my rifle compared to what a V-Max or Varmageddon does.
What I need help with please is finding a non toxic V-Max equivalent that isn't really a deer bullet pretending to be something else.
I have shot 35gr Hornady NTX (non toxic expanding) with my hornet and they are great. They blow up and act just like V-Max, but that's as heavy as they get. This is the best non toxic bullet I have found for my purposes so far.
Is there anything that works the same as V-Max, Blitzking, Varmageddon in say 50ish grains for my .223 or 70ish grains for my .243?
There must be a demand for V-Max style bullets in the weight ranges I'm talking about because literally millions have been sold.
It just seems really odd to me that the advice coming down the line for varmints is to use what are effectively deer bullets and concenteate on immaculate shot placement at the risk of otherwise drilling our soft skinned friend Mr Fox.
In crude terms I want very big holes in him and I don't want him to run. That seems more humane to me.
What is available please?
1:10 in the .243 and 1:8 in the .223.
Or, do I have to wait until the lead ban arrives and we only rethink varmint bullets when it happens?

I would wait, I'm a firm advocate of copper bullets for deer, but won't be swapping to copper for foxes and vermin until I have to.

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Tried .224 V Grenade in Hornet at 3000 fps and found they didn't expand much at all. That was the 36gr bullets.
What are the 58gr 6mm bullets like from a .243 anyone?

 

[The Grouse]

Not quite in the weight range you stated but the Winchester 55grain Zinc Varmint X worked well from my .243 1:9 twist. Foxes outwardly intact but turned to soup internally. Same results from 60 yds to 200yds. Not sure if available for reloading, but as an off the shelf round it does the job.

 

[Rake Aboot]

Why ?

Why wouldn’t you just use lead ?

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Because one day, perhaps in the not too distant future, we will be breaking the law if we use lead. At that point I'd like to know that I have non toxic loads already worked up, components on my little shelf and that my calibres will shoot the alternatives on offer and do a decent job of it.
If I can shoot something non-toxic and it works as well as lead for me, the question should actually be (cost aside) why wouldn't I want to use it?

 

[Night òwl]

No such thing as non toxic, all metals can potentially be toxic if consumed .
Lead free

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Fair enough, but you know what I'm getting at. Lead is currently on the hit-list and it's going to stay there no matter how much we protest. We are being edged towards using what the public/various bodies "perceive" to be non toxic.
Copper might well be toxic (I have no idea) but no one is trying to stop me shooting it, whereas lead is a different story.
God forbid we actually make the case that all metals are toxic, because we'll have no bullets at all then.

 

[Cyres]

Rumours have it that copper will only apply to 6mm and above.
D

 

[DavyG]

I do a tiny bit of stalking, but I shoot a lot of foxes and a fair few rabbits.
I've shot copper through my .243 and know you pin a deer through both shoulders at 200yds and still have joints worth eating.
There is a world of difference between what a barnes TTSS does to fox out of my rifle compared to what a V-Max or Varmageddon does.
What I need help with please is finding a non toxic V-Max equivalent that isn't really a deer bullet pretending to be something else.
I have shot 35gr Hornady NTX (non toxic expanding) with my hornet and they are great. They blow up and act just like V-Max, but that's as heavy as they get. This is the best non toxic bullet I have found for my purposes so far.
Is there anything that works the same as V-Max, Blitzking, Varmageddon in say 50ish grains for my .223 or 70ish grains for my .243?
There must be a demand for V-Max style bullets in the weight ranges I'm talking about because literally millions have been sold.
It just seems really odd to me that the advice coming down the line for varmints is to use what are effectively deer bullets and concenteate on immaculate shot placement at the risk of otherwise drilling our soft skinned friend Mr Fox.
In crude terms I want very big holes in him and I don't want him to run. That seems more humane to me.
What is available please?
1:10 in the .243 and 1:8 in the .223.
Or, do I have to wait until the lead ban arrives and we only rethink varmint bullets when it happens?

I thought all this non-toxic copper crap was for shooting things that will end up on the table. Keep rattling “Renard” with lead because no matter how you cook him he’ll taste like $h1t.
Regards,
DG

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

I don't think we'll get that easy a ride of it. I really hope that smaller calibre bullets can carry on as they are, but the increasingly "woke" world in which we live will point out (just like they have in California) that whilst Renard sits quietly rotting in the hedge all manner of things will come and gave a peck at him and his maggoty corpse, thereby ingesting all sorts of lead particles that my highly frangible bullet deposited on its way through his ribcage. Not good news for birds of prey, or so my mate with a Harris hawk tells me. It was the Condors in California… same principle though.
It's well beyond the table meat argument and the Health and Safety Executive recently had a pop about concerns over the amount of unregulated lead in the environment. Split shot for fishing went first, then we had the ban on lead shot for wildfowling.
This is an extension of the same argument.
Anyway, I've dug the .243 out of the cabinet, loaded a magazine with 72grain lead hollowpoints and I'm off for a stroll with them whilst I still can.

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Not quite in the weight range you stated but the Winchester 55grain Zinc Varmint X worked well from my .243 1:9 twist. Foxes outwardly intact but turned to soup internally. Same results from 60 yds to 200yds. Not sure if available for reloading, but as an off the shelf round it does the job.

Thanks… I've looked but can't see what bullets they use and don't know whether they are availanle as components. Exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for though.

 

[jthyttin]

Probably Nosler Ballistic Tip Lead Free. Seems at least McAvoy lists them in stock, and Brownells in backorder.

EDIT: no they're not Nosler, but regardless the Nosler one should be worth a try

 

[maximus otter]

Why ?

Why wouldn’t you just use lead ?

Indeed.

You don't eat foxes (presumably...), and you'll probably be head-shooting rabbits with a .223 if you want to eat them, so why bother?

maximus otter

 

[User00040]

No such thing as non toxic, all metals can potentially be toxic if consumed .
Lead free

Still lead in primers

 

[Hairysausagefingers]

Indeed.

You don't eat foxes (presumably...), and you'll probably be head-shooting rabbits with a .223 if you want to eat them, so why bother?

maximus otter

What do we do when the lead ban eventually comes in? That's what I'm bothered about. I don't like drilling foxes or anything else and watching it limp off, so I'm on a quest for decent lead free varmint rounds now and some feedback from people who have used them in .223 and .243.

 

[MIKEC]

Might be worth having a look at yewtree, they do .224 & .243 bullets that are listed as suitable for fox.

 

[maximus otter]

What do we do when the lead ban eventually comes in?

a) If it does...

b) ... I'll work something out then.

If we all cooperate, like good little drones, by reducing the demand for normal ammo, Our Lords and Masters will simply declare "See? They don't need it anyway", and bring in a ban that might actually not have occurred.

I don't believe in helping the hangman by sticking my head through the noose and adjusting it myself.

maximus otter

 

[Selous]

I have only shot one fox with a 6mm varmint grenade but it died instantly, only had an entrance wound and sloshed a lot when I moved it !!