Open Sights

[takbok]

I got some Sauer 202 open sights fitted to my rifle when it was rebarreled. They look very much like Recknagel sights - find something that you like in the Recknagel catalogue or similar and a competent gunsmith should be able to drill and tap the barrel to fit them.

Here's a pic of my rifle:

The best thing about these sights is that they're high enough that I can use a moderator with them. The rifle is lovely and light without the scope too and the Sako 75 stock works very well with them.

The open sights are mostly for show though. In a cluttered, sometimes dark wood a scope wins hands down.

 

[VSS]

I'd get a gunsmith to make a thread protector with an open site blade fitted and then it's only a rear sight you need to get fitted. Would be cheaper than having a foresight mounted onto the barrel I'd imagine??

There are some very nice photos of just such a thread protector in some earlier posts by Bewsher, in which he details his 222 restoration project.

There were also some posts somewhere on here from someone who was planning to manufacture and market something similar, but not sure who that was or when. Would love to get one myself.

 

[enfieldspares]

That’s interesting, enfieldspares. I’ve never heard that before, can you expand a little, please.

Basically for a number of reason...brightness of the ambient light, heat haze and how the pupil is affected by light you'll shoot to a different point of impact. Not because the light affects the bullet but because the sunlight (or no sunlight) affects how you the shooter perceive the target. I have cut an pasted a couple of comments from various internet forums.

When the light comes up (i.e. overcast burns off or the sun comes from behind a cloud) a black bullseye on a white background will appear larger than it did under the overcast or cloudy conditions. If you are using a 6 0'clock hold sight picuture you will in effect be holding lower on the target and will need to bring your sights up to conpensate. If you are using a center mass hold the change in light will have less impact (large or small, your are still holding in the center of the bull).

First, it has to do with iron sights, post front sight.
This does not pertain to scopes or aperature front.When it is very bright, shooters find the contrast too harsh between their
front site and the black bull. They have a tendency to put a little space
below the bull.Therefore their shot will go low; requiring a sight
adjustment UP.
When the contrast is good, they snuggle that post right up to the bull.
Then their shot will be high, requiring an adjustment down. Thusly "Sun

up, sights up, sun down, sights down"

The effects of lighting on the target are very real, and well documented. Sunlight does not affect the bullet, but rather the shooters perception of the target. This gets even more difficult when mirage is taken into account. Targets in shadows, or in diverse backgrounds can make it worse yet.

Essentially a brightly lit target will likely have you perceiving it differently than if its overcast. It may appear larger than it is, or in a slightly different location. Sunlight coming from one side, can shade the other side, making it look like the target center is toward the bright side.

I can go into much greater detail if you like, but it basically has to do with lighting and shadows.

To your question of if the sun is behind the shooter... a pretty cool thing can happen if the angle is right. Copper jacketed bullets with shiny bottoms can reflect the light directly back at you, and you will see what appears to be a perfectly lit tracer heading to the target. Its incredible, and every time it happens to me I launch a bunch of rounds to see the effect more.

The effects of lighting on the target are very real, and well documented. Sunlight does not affect the bullet, but rather the shooters perception of the target. This gets even more difficult when mirage is taken into account. Targets in shadows, or in diverse backgrounds can make it worse yet.

Essentially a brightly lit target will likely have you perceiving it differently than if its overcast. It may appear larger than it is, or in a slightly different location. Sunlight coming from one side, can shade the other side, making it look like the target center is toward the bright side.

I can go into much greater detail if you like, but it basically has to do with lighting and shadows.

To your question of if the sun is behind the shooter... a pretty cool thing can happen if the angle is right. Copper jacketed bullets with shiny bottoms can reflect the light directly back at you, and you will see what appears to be a perfectly lit tracer heading to the target. Its incredible, and every time it happens to me I launch a bunch of rounds to see the effect more.

So the relevance of this to HUNTING with iron sights is to zero on paper using a centre hold on the zero target rather than a six oçlock hold...as:

--If you are shooting irons, these effects are well-documented. With a scope, the effects go away. On non-bull targets, the effects go away.
--If lights coming from the right or left and shining on the target face, it MAY be worth "a click" (1/4 MOA) INTO the sunlight. Pistol shooters and rifle shooters alike tend to shoot a little to the opposite side of incoming light on the iron sights and target.
--If light is up or down in amount from what it was when you originally zeroed, it can usually be accounted for with 1/4 to 1/2 MOA change in the sights. This is dependant on the amount of change, and again, the shooter as an individual.
--On bull targets with a front post sight, if you can make a center hold (POI = POA) work for your eyes, then the "lights up, sights up" rules can be forgotten. That would be why I shoot that hold with post sights. The same rule applies to those with front apertures: they're always shooting a center hold, so it doesn't matter a lot what the bullseye's perceived size IS, as long as it's centered.

Then some more comments:

On a very basic iron set up with fore end post, the effects of the sun are quite obvious.

On a low light day the post will appear crisp and with good contrast, but it is is very bright with the sun ahead of you (for an extreme example), the post will appear to shrink, which means you would end up bringing the barrel up to cover the target. You need to raise the rear sight a few clicks to counter this.

It doesn't take much of an angular change to send a bullet in the wrong direction.

To me that LAST comment above is the one that is most important to bear in mind if using iron sights ESPECIALLY A BEAD SIGHT as a very bright sun to one side or the other will have the same effect on the windage as it can cause you to then put your bullets away from the side the sun is on. As if you raise the foresight the rifle shoots lower and if you move it right the rifle shoots left. It is why a flat back blade and square flat bottomed "U" shaped rearsight notch is always usually a better front sight choice for anything.Beads and those very shallow gently sloping "V" backsights aren't IMHO as they are too light affected even at ranges over fifty yards.

 

[alberta boy]

Not so many decades ago, hunters were generally suspicious to riflescopes and the common way to aim and shoot was to use the iron sights.....
For driven hunt it's still one of the best way to get a wide view of the situation, with both eyes open, a better fit to the gun stock and a lighter rifle.
However, many situations aquire a scope and the best solution is probably a good quick release mount for the scope, that will give you both opportunities. I'd never have a rifle without iron sights and in some situations it's unbeatable (not stalking though)
On one of my rifles, a marlin 1895 guide gun 45-70, I use only iron sights, but not the crappy original ones. I mounted the skinner express sight, a US made peep/ghost sight that works well although my eyes aren't that sharp they used to be.
There are many types of diopter sights and I think they are very good. Check out the skinner lo pro, it might be possible to mount it temporarily on a scope mount base, instead of a traditional sight blade on the barrel, together with an adjustable front sight
LO-Pro Sight

I have a set of Skinners Guide Gun sights on order for my 1895G , a very good sight for $90 US . I had a Vortex SPARC2 on it for a while , but the heavier loads basically tore the guts out of it . I will say , Vortex has a great warranty in place . It was replaced and returned inside of three weeks . It's going on a 30/30 this time . I also ordered a scout rail and will be putting a Leopold Scout scope on the 45/70 with quick detach rings , the skinners are for back up sights . I would prefer a traditional scope , but the heavier loads in the guide gun make the probability of getting a scope to the head very high .
My eyes aren't what they used to be , but I can still use an aperture sight . The original Marlin sights were just a blur for me .

AB

 

[kenbro]

enfieldspares,
I only really used iron sights on low powered air weapons in my eary teens (Apart from a Rem. Nylon 66, where if the sun came up it melted the stock enough to change poi. So, never experienced that phenomenon.
Doubt it will affect me now, either at my age!
Non the less, very interesting reading.
Thanks,Ken.

 

[kimh]

Hi, a bit off topic but interesting that you can shoot with varifocals - I find they "break up" the cross hairs in my scope. As a result I take my glasses off when shooting (distance vision is fairly OK)

yep, it was a problem, I mentioned this to my optician who said I need three stage glasses - that is a harsh step in the varifocus, you simply move your head up in clicks or down?

 

[smokey]

nice idea but such a poor choice nowadays iron sights are so poor compared to modern optical may be good for emergency but other than that forget it. whilst working in Zambia I have seen more wounded game with heavy rifles and open sights

 

[jon15]

Thank you all for your views and insight, will look at both options of open or a very low magnification scope.

Happy Christmas everyone.

 

[dvbookshop]

I have a set of Blaser open sights, blade front, square notch rear, white higlights, if anyone is interested.

 

[roryh]

I know some of the military type sights have a 'battle sight' as a secondary/backup. In my day the SUSAT whatever they use now.

I am curious, although I use scopes myself, does anyone use this type of sight/red dot/*insert type*? do they still have the iron backup? are there scopes with an iron add on out there?

It seems common sense to me that we all use scopes as one wants to use the best tool for the job. These other types only occurred on reading this thread and made me think. Actually is it? or is it just the de rigueur?

 

[kenbro]

There are scope rings available where you can look through them underneath the scope to use convential iron sights. Obviously, they’re a bit high.
Ken.