Paracetemol??? Veterinary advise please.

[floyd]

Hi guys, I would be hugely grateful, If one of the vets on here could put my mind at rest.

Our 6 yr old male lab had a tumble tonight, and has been restless, and in obvious discomfort since, we suspect his back.

We called the out of hours vet immediately, who have advised us to give him 1 and a 1/2 500mg paracetemol tablets and to call them back if he deteriorates, or to call back in the mornin and arrange for him to be seen tomorrow. (We have used these vets for 15+ YRS for dogs and horses).

I always thought paracetemol was a big no no for dogs, I have searched the net and seen so many conflicting posts/advice some advocating its use in the correct dose, some vehemently refusing to advise its use, even to the point of suggesting it can be toxic/fatal etc, that I am not happy doing this.

I am on my way to a friend at the local hunt kennel who has metacam, which we have confirmed is suitable.

So my question is, Is paracetemol safe for dogs in this situation, and have we been given good advice or not.

 

[devilishdave]

Strange that you dont trust your vet after 15 years of using them, I guess there is somthing else that has undermined your trust in them? In that case get a new vet you need to be able to trust what they say rather than coming on to an internet forum with all manor of non qualified self appointed experts.

Dave

 

[Apache]

There is a licensed dog painkiller containing 400mg paracetamol (1 tablet per 12kg) that states for a maximum of 5 days use (Pardale V).

In the short term it's perfectly fine, just don't use it all the time other than on your vets advice. You can use aspirin too, but never ibuprofen.

Paracetamol is very toxic to cats.

Like the poster above, what reason have you for not trusting your vet?

 

[floyd]

Thanks Apache.

Firstly, a huge thanks to Apache.

Dave/Apache, you both ask the same valid question, we have used this practice for 15/16 years, the missus used to run the equine section at the local agri college and we both have huge faith in the 3 partners, who we usually deal with.

In this case, the person we spoke to was not one of the partners, and was on call, and whilst I have no reason to dis-trust her advise, as soon as the missus said that she had advised paracetemol, I was alarmed as I had thought (rightly or wrongly) that paracetemol was a NO NO. It also seemed strange that the advice was given over the phone, without examination.

So I did a search online and found much conflicting advice, and having seen the quality of the advice thet has been posted here, i thought I would ask, its not that I have a trust issue with them, but something just didn't seem right (even if I was wrong), and I feel much happier having checked this out.

Guess I just needed some reassurance, when it comes to the dogs, I only want the best for them, and don't feel I would have been doing the right thing , in taking the advice without question if I didn't feel right about it.

 

[limulus]

which anti inflammatory would you recommend Apache?
Sorry to hijack your thread Floyd buy it looks like youve been answered and done the right thing anyway

 

[timbrayford]

We found Rimadyl quite effective on old arthritic Spaniels. Don't use it for treatment of chronic illness in younger dogs as it can cause organ failure if used long term

 

[Buchan]

Floyd - if you have a good relationship then it would be worth giving the practice a bit of feedback. A lot of people know that paracetamol is lethal in cats hence your reasonable confusion. It would have helped you if the vet had said, "It's OK in dogs, but keep it away form cats" or something similar. Hope your lab is OK now

Limulus -Which anti-inflammatory? - any of the non steroid ones (NSAID) metacam, rimadyl etc There are lots available and some are the same drug under a different trade name. All work in the roughly the same way and there are no "best" ones. Just as in people some dogs tolerate certain types better than others.

 

[floyd]

Update

Guys, thank you, one and all who responded.

We took Murph to the vets this morning, vet has diagnosed a probable 'hyper-extension' of the spine, which is the cause of the pain.

He has prescribed 4 days Metacam, and keep him as quiet and calm as possible. He is well versed in the quiet, calm and usually asleep mode so this shouldn't cause too many problems, but it is strange to have to coax him out for the toilet/food etc.

If no great improvement then back for more treatment/tests, on Monday.

Fingers crossed, and thanks again

 

[limulus]

Hi Buchan,

I was just wondering which one would be best in a situation where paracetamol wasnt available. I'm off to a jungle area with one of my dogs and understand they dont have any there as the parrots eat em all

Floyd - if you have a good relationship then it would be worth giving the practice a bit of feedback. A lot of people know that paracetamol is lethal in cats hence your reasonable confusion. It would have helped you if the vet had said, "It's OK in dogs, but keep it away form cats" or something similar. Hope your lab is OK now

Limulus -Which anti-inflammatory? - any of the non steroid ones (NSAID) metacam, rimadyl etc There are lots available and some are the same drug under a different trade name. All work in the roughly the same way and there are no "best" ones. Just as in people some dogs tolerate certain types better than others.

 

[Buchan]

That's two elephants and a snake falling off a wall.

 

[limulus]

In seriousness I was interested in the mechanisms involved in the various anti inflammatory drugs. I appreciate acetyl salicylic acid probably wouldnt even be licensed if it was presented to the MCA because of its ulcerative effect but I also understand ASA workes differently to acetaminophen. Both however, appear to cause liver/kidney problems in dogs (humans as well I guess given sufficient dosage)

 

[Apache]

In seriousness I was interested in the mechanisms involved in the various anti inflammatory drugs. I appreciate acetyl salicylic acid probably wouldnt even be licensed if it was presented to the MCA because of its ulcerative effect but I also understand ASA workes differently to acetaminophen. Both however, appear to cause liver/kidney problems in dogs (humans as well I guess given sufficient dosage)

It's the VMD (Veterinary Medicines Directorate) that coordinates the licensing of veterinary drugs in this country. I think it's a load of rubbish when people say aspirin would not be given a licence now since it seems to be a wonder drug and there are recommendations that all people over 50 take a low dose every day! Maybe wouldn't be so freely available but the side effects are rare.

In the UK we call it paracetamol, if you use the American name I refuse to talk to you! It's interesting that paracetamol is a painkiller but doesn't have anti inflammatory effects and doesn't fall under the NSAID class. As far as I recall it's mechanism of action isn't as clear as the other NSAIDS. Most work by blocking the action of cyclooxygenase enzymes and reduce prostaglandin syntheses. Aspirin, ibuprofen, meloxicam and carprofen all fall into this category and it's the wide ranging inhibition of prostaglandin synthesis that causes the undesirable effects (reduced mucus production in the stomach leading to ulcers, and alterations in renal blood flow leading to kidney toxicity). Some more modern drugs are more specific to just pain receptors and they can be used when the more cost effective older drugs have been exhausted.

All drugs are poisons, the difference between the two is the safe dose. For example in the dog the safety margin for ibuprofen is so narrow the drug is not considered safe. With carprofen (Rimadyl, Carprieve etc etc) the safety margin is much greater.

In terms of a recommendation if you may be far from a vet - speak to your own vet before you go. In similar situations for trusted clients I have prescribed a short course of painkillers and sometimes antibiotics with specific instructions for use. Personally I like carprofen in big dogs (Rimadyl or copies) and meloxicam (Metacam or equivalent) in smaller dogs as the liquid dose is more easy to fine tune dose. Some drugs suit some dogs better than others, there is no one size fits all.

 

[limulus]

I would never use the American term for parrots eat em all. Unfortunately it is a fact that aspirin probably wouldnt be given a license today not just because of (as described seldom) propensity to cause inflammation/ulceration of the stomach but also because it would never meet the stability requirements (degradation to salicylic acid over a relatively short time). That it can easily be used to create quite a potent explosive might also be an issue (picric acid, wonderful stuff IMO).

Thanks for the answer.

 

[Buchan]

Sorry Limulus, with the dreadful pun, I missed the serious question. I'm with Apache on carprofen or meloxicam (drug names). I believe that the mechanism of paracetamol has now been determined, but I've not been able to find a reference. As to causing liver/kidney failure, I've seen very few cases and most of those had pre-existing failure. I've also used it in dogs with arthritis and kidney failure and not had problems, but the dogs were in a lot of pain so the risk was justified.