Pre DSC1

[Bowland blades]

sorry i am totally against Pre-DSC 1 . the whole course was intended to take someone from zero to someone capable of going out on their own . . After gaining some field practice you should then be able to gather and subit level 2 ( without going to a deer farm or taking only one deer .
DMQ are imo just eaking things out for more cash not quality ! It was never designed to make any more than it had to cost

 

[bottletopbill]

Tim.243 none yet overlay took me out rabbit shooting a few weeks ago many on the OSR yet

Bill

 

[Overlay]

sorry i am totally against Pre-DSC 1 . the whole course was intended to take someone from zero to someone capable of going out on their own . . After gaining some field practice you should then be able to gather and subit level 2 ( without going to a deer farm or taking only one deer .
DMQ are imo just eaking things out for more cash not quality ! It was never designed to make any more than it had to cost

Yep I see your logic, but any training is good training, not to try and progress with any thing related to your sport amounts to you cheating yourself, you won’t get any more proficient if you don’t look to improve.
apart from BASC and BDS there are a stack of stalking individuals or companies providing some sort of training or modules and some are a great deal more in monetary value than the BASC or BDS by a very long chalk and some aren’t even regulated or recognised unlike the DMQ Certs

 

[Bowland blades]

Yep I see your logic, but any training is good training, not to try and progress with any thing related to your sport amounts to you cheating yourself, you won’t get any more proficient if you don’t look to improve.
apart from BASC and BDS there are a stack of stalking individuals or companies providing some sort of training or modules and some are a great deal more in monetary value than the BASC or BDS by a very long chalk and some aren’t even regulated or recognised unlike the DMQ Certs

As someone who once was a trainer and one who had the pleasures of re-training folks plus being landed with very mixed up folks ( in a different field) . I disagree just like i think that practice done badly is worse than no training at all ( because de- learning is tougher to achieve in a candidate than learning itself ) i will have some stats on that one tucked away gathering dust .
I dont really care what folks are happy to pay , I am interested in what if fair to charge and what is best
Can DSC1 be done in a day ? No ! but it can be done in two. But it seems we have more pre-DSC and more post DSC2 add on bits
DMQ are basically their own invidulater / regulator .
Ok so i did DSC 1 + 2 years ago at a time when your evidence was a 3 beast minimum and applications where still subject to questioning through BDS ( they where the only ones doing it commercially then ) . No Park animals and proper planned documented stalks on fully wild deer . Are BASC and BDS holding all the very best trainers ? Doubt it , might be but i just doubt it and it definitely not fair to say without independently sampling. Or a Totally unconnected outside body doing vetting them all .

 

[Overlay]

Hi BB
where would you suggest someone should go to get experience and training, times have moved on, time is precious, time is money, virtually gone are the times when a shooting man would take you under his wing to show you the accepted etiquette to shooting and the work involved, like it or not to move on in a sport that involves firearms, killing animals, field craft is not an easy ask for someone to pick up unless you make a decision to get yourself up to where you want to be and that anyway you look at it is 90% undertaken by someone teaching you and nowadays that includes courses with a mix of actual hands on experience - the more you do the more you learn

I’m not saying your wrong on courses, the fact is with the absence of being able to tag along with someone to learn over time, some times the only options are courses and gaining experience by paying for stalking which the learning part falls away pretty quickly in some quarters DSC1 + prep are or is a stepping stone for experience, no way is it a be all and end all its a part of someone’s learning curve
courses don’t make you a better stalker, getting it right, field craft, a big bag of luck and what you’ve soaked up from courses will eventually put you in a good place to be a safe and a humane hunter, as some believe there are shortcuts there isn’t one, slogging it is the only way, courses good or bad will help make a right decision

 

[bottletopbill]

Overlay it is a big thank you to you and ALL the other members who take time to take us NEWBIES out and show us how to try all types of shooting .
With out you guys showing us our shooting will be gone and lost .
SO FROM ME A BIG THANKS GUY'S please keep doing this to help other's

 

[gixer1]

I sometimes wonder if there’s an element of smugness/jobsworth-ness with the DSC and people running some of them…you can see that with some of the comments on this thread…from what I have read and heard some have been failed for being 1/4” outside of the circle on the deer target yet the circle is not visible from the firing point. If they want grouping why not just put up a standard bullseye target and let them shoot at that.

If it’s about assessing a fatal shot on a deer why are people being failed for being 1/4” out of a circle??

Also, people mention “he couldn’t identify XYZ deer”….I know stalkers who have spent 60 years in the game and never have they clapped eyes on a CWD, fallow or munty….so are they incompetent stalkers? To me that’s not a good measure of competence because you have spent 3 days looking at photographs on Google so can spot a fallows arse hanging half way past a tree.

This to me is the reason the DSC1 and 2 are not the be all and end all of measuring competence.

Regards,
Gixer

 

[Overlay]

I sometimes wonder if there’s an element of smugness/jobsworth-ness with the DSC and people running some of them…you can see that with some of the comments on this thread…from what I have read and heard some have been failed for being 1/4” outside of the circle on the deer target yet the circle is not visible from the firing point. If they want grouping why not just put up a standard bullseye target and let them shoot at that.

If it’s about assessing a fatal shot on a deer why are people being failed for being 1/4” out of a circle??

Also, people mention “he couldn’t identify XYZ deer”….I know stalkers who have spent 60 years in the game and never have they clapped eyes on a CWD, fallow or munty….so are they incompetent stalkers? To me that’s not a good measure of competence because you have spent 3 days looking at photographs on Google so can spot a fallows arse hanging half way past a tree.

This to me is the reason the DSC1 and 2 are not the be all and end all of measuring competence.

Regards,
Gixer

should be part of your learning curve on your journey

 

[gixer1]

should be part of your learning curve on your journey

What should be part of the learning curve?

 

[Tim.243]

I sometimes wonder if there’s an element of smugness/jobsworth-ness with the DSC and people running some of them…you can see that with some of the comments on this thread…from what I have read and heard some have been failed for being 1/4” outside of the circle on the deer target yet the circle is not visible from the firing point. If they want grouping why not just put up a standard bullseye target and let them shoot at that.

If it’s about assessing a fatal shot on a deer why are people being failed for being 1/4” out of a circle??

Also, people mention “he couldn’t identify XYZ deer”….I know stalkers who have spent 60 years in the game and never have they clapped eyes on a CWD, fallow or munty….so are they incompetent stalkers? To me that’s not a good measure of competence because you have spent 3 days looking at photographs on Google so can spot a fallows arse hanging half way past a tree.

This to me is the reason the DSC1 and 2 are not the be all and end all of measuring competence.

Regards,
Gixer

Well all the stalkers who have never clapped eyes on a Mj CWD or Fallow adhere to the same process when renewing their FAC. Also if they fail to fill in the forms/process EVEN to the point of putting down a 6 as a G in the serial number of their rifle then just like a person who is outside of the 4" target they will have to amend it by taking the test again or in the case of the stalking veterans who will have to amend their mistake.

 

[gixer1]

Well all the stalkers who have never clapped eyes on a Mj CWD or Fallow adhere to the same process when renewing their FAC. Also if they fail to fill in the forms/process EVEN to the point of putting down a 6 as a G in the serial number of their rifle then just like a person who is outside of the 4" target they will have to amend it by taking the test again or in the case of the stalking veterans who will have to amend their mistake.

I’m not sure I see your comparison…if a stalker spends their whole life in the highlands controlling red deer, why is it important for him to show he knows what a chinese water deer looks like to attain a DSC1?

Sure, you could put it down to personal development however is it required? - no, it’s not.

 

[Tim.243]

I’m not sure I see your comparison…if a stalker spends their whole life in the highlands controlling red deer, why is it important for him to show he knows what a chinese water deer looks like to attain a DSC1?

Sure, you could put it down to personal development however is it required? - no, it’s not.

You don't want to see the comparison but the comparison is the person missing the 4" target made a mistake the 60 year stalking veteran according to you could not work out what species of deer about the size of a small lab was in fact a muntjac...

Many years ago I saw my first muntjac after seeing pictures of one, when it stepped out I shot it, I knew it was not a red fallow roe cwd sika but in fact a MJ
My SA friend saw his first MJ on his first outing (2019) after spending a lifetime culling in SA he didn't need telling the only question was "can we get closer" lol

Too answer your question
why is it important for him to show he knows what a chinese water deer looks like to attain a DSC1?

They have a season and also quite often on the same land as MJ which don't have a season....
One would hope the person with 60 yrs under their belt would take the time to find out...Or go to speck savers

 

[gixer1]

You don't want to see the comparison but the comparison is the person missing the 4" target made a mistake the 60 year stalking veteran according to you could not work out what species of deer about the size of a small lab was in fact a muntjac...

Many years ago I saw my first muntjac after seeing pictures of one, when it stepped out I shot it, I knew it was not a red fallow roe cwd sika but in fact a MJ
My SA friend saw his first MJ on his first outing (2019) after spending a lifetime culling in SA he didn't need telling the only question was "can we get closer" lol

Too answer your question
why is it important for him to show he knows what a chinese water deer looks like to attain a DSC1?

They have a season and also quite often on the same land as MJ which don't have a season....
One would hope the person with 60 yrs under their belt would take the time to find out...Or go to speck savers

Why? You wrongly assume anyone gives a monkeys what a muntjac looks like…there are many, many stalkers, keepers etc that never needed to know anything about a muntjac, they have spent their whole career in one area and you are not going to see muntjac there anytime soon. As I said - if they cannot recognise a different species of deer then it doesn’t mean they are not competent in their field.

And I don’t think the deer measures the 4” circle before it decides to keel over and die. Being a 1/4” outside the circle could be nothing to do with a bad shot - it maybe where their point of aim was. If (as was shown on a thread here a while back) someone is 1/4” below the circle on a roe it will be a heart shot and a dead roe deer all day long.

If the people assessing are experts they will know this.

If it’s about putting all the shots in a 4” circle then just make the target a 4” circle.

Sure, there has to be a standard however, if assessing you can tell if a shot would be fatal or a wounding shot.

 

[Overlay]

What should be part of the learning curve?

anything you can learn to help you develop as a stalker is always good. whatever experience comes your way soak it up and use the bits you are comfortable with and keep learning

 

[Tim.243]

Why? You wrongly assume anyone gives a monkeys what a muntjac looks like…there are many, many stalkers, keepers etc that never needed to know anything about a muntjac, they have spent their whole career in one area and you are not going to see muntjac there anytime soon. As I said - if they cannot recognise a different species of deer then it doesn’t mean they are not competent in their field.

And I don’t think the deer measures the 4” circle before it decides to keel over and die. Being a 1/4” outside the circle could be nothing to do with a bad shot - it maybe where their point of aim was. If (as was shown on a thread here a while back) someone is 1/4” below the circle on a roe it will be a heart shot and a dead roe deer all day long.

If the people assessing are experts they will know this.

If it’s about putting all the shots in a 4” circle then just make the target a 4” circle.

Sure, there has to be a standard however, if assessing you can tell if a shot would be fatal or a wounding shot.

Your question was about a CWD and what it looked like.... but you swerved that bit

Being competent is knowing when deer are in season regardless of what part of the country you are in or do you disagree?


I’m not sure I see your comparison…if a stalker spends their whole life in the highlands controlling red deer, why is it important for him to show he knows what a chinese water deer looks like to attain a DSC1?

Sure, you could put it down to personal development however is it required? - no, it’s not.

 

[gixer1]

anything you can learn to help you develop as a stalker is always good. whatever experience comes your way soak it up and use the bits you are comfortable with and keep learning

I get that - however, that’s personal development, not a requirement if you are only dealing with one species.

Nowadays Deer managers, lease holders etc will be required to have DSC and most will go and look at Google or do the online tests for the deer ID part however in days gone by before DSC requirements did the stalkers/keepers in northwest Scotland need to know how to identify a CWD or muntjac and if they did not does it mean they were/are incompetent stalkers?

 

[gixer1]

Your question was about a CWD and what it looked like.... but you swerved that bit

Being competent is knowing when deer are in season regardless of what part of the country you are in or do you disagree?


I’m not sure I see your comparison…if a stalker spends their whole life in the highlands controlling red deer, why is it important for him to show he knows what a chinese water deer looks like to attain a DSC1?

Sure, you could put it down to personal development however is it required? - no, it’s not.

What did I swerve? The point is you can be a competent stalker and never have seen certain species of deer - and not need to see or know about them to perform your task in a career spanning 60 years…you seem to be concentrating on one particular type of deer…the point being you could be in a part of the country that does not have those.

 

[Overlay]

all the new wave must haves, these requirements are for employers and business generation in some part BUT any course is invaluable if and for personal development you want to just shoot Reds crack on but don’t miss out on anything else

 

[John Doe]

If it’s about assessing a fatal shot on a deer why are people being failed for being 1/4” out of a circle??


Surely you accept that there has to be a standard and if there is a standard then there has to be a pass/fail line? If a fail by 1/4” should be overlooked then how about the guy that is 3/8” out? There is a line, if you’re inside it, or even touch it, you pass if you’re outside you fail. Why should someone who can’t meet the standard pass, that just degrades the whole concept.

 

[gixer1]

It’s not about the 1/4” out - if you have someone that does a 1/2” grouping with all 4 shots for the shooting test 1/4” below the circle then surely an assessor with any sense can see that a) the person is a capable shot and b) all four shots would result in a dead deer. Failing someone in that instance would be silly.

My point being if the 4 shots were in the area of the yellow marking it’s still a dead deer, some people shoot low heart, some shoot pinning shots, some shoot centre mass (which it seems is the DSC preference) but all three areas will be dead deer.



If a person was shooting and at different sides of the circle I’d be more concerned than someone shooting a 1/2” group that was 1/4” below the line of the circle.