Range Finder

[zambezi]

I wouldn't be without my rangefinder binos...My binos also measure and can compensate for vertical angle (cosine rule), which could be important if not shooting horizontally, e.g on a hill.

Incline can make a significant difference to effective range. I would always prefer that a range finder make that calculation.

Also checking a field zeroing range, set up with a tape measure to supposedly 100 and 200 yards, actually nearer to 110 and 220. That doesn't really matter but its nice to know these things.

My club range is a quarry site, approx 130m long. By convention, portable home made target target frames are deployed at a point in the quarry said to be 100m from the firing point. I ranged that position last time out and it is actually 92m. Perhaps not a lot in it, but if I can set the rifle to be bob on at 100m, then minor personal errors in the field have less chance of resulting in a sub optimum quarry shot.

...a decent guide should not be embarrassed by having their judgement tested, and complimented when correct.

Agree

 

[Cris]

Surely you don't pace the distance?

Exactly that.
[/QUOTE]
I like to check the distance with my range finder after the shot or if it’s gone dark use land marks and google maps etc.
Never used on in 25 years until last year and have to say it surprised me how in some situations I could be out by 50m. May not be a practice problem if you have set up your rifle to shoot within 2 inches from 50m to 200m on a Roe size animal in he chest area but scale that down to CWD or Muntjac at 150 to 200m and it could mean a missed or wounded animal.
Still in the heat of the moment I rarely have time or think about getting the range finder out but it’s there if I have time incantation or doubt about a shot.
I have some stalking were the fields are a KM long and 300m wide with no features to aid distance and these can be very challenging.
They have their place as does all aids used correctly and appropriately.
If you know your ground and are 100% confident then all good and nothing to fear about f a client wants to use one. You have the final say.

 

[Cris]

I wasn't sure whether to start another thread but being another piece of technology and having some really good reasons for and against on RF what are peoples thoughts on using Thermal spotters? I have never used one but on several occasions have tracked my shot deer into thick cover just using blood trails some prooved more difficult than others especially the diminutive Muntjac .
The practises I use came from training and experience but I do know folk who have spotted shot deer with thermal in thick cover and retrieved them much quicker.
Good piece of equipment or lazy tracking?
M

It’s a good call to add to the debate and is something a stalking mate for s thinking would be a good idea to have. I would not be anti as I have spent a good deal of time and n the bushes looking for shot beer and it would save time for sure. It then there is the view that you should be honing your post shot site tracking skills. Can never win really. You need to do what works for you in the first place.
For a pro stalker taking people out who turn up with all the gear must make them think I’m sure however!

 

[caorach]

Firstly I don't dispute that there are people good at judging range, but this doesn't mean everyone can do it. Also I think that knowing your ground helps as it seems to give you some sort of perspective - if I know the firebreaks where I stalk are 200 yards apart, generally, then that gives me a great starting point as I will have some idea where both myself and the deer are relative to the fire breaks.

However, the problem with judging range without verification is that you don't actually know how accurate you were. I've mentioned it before but one evening two of us were stalking on some open fields when we spotted a decent sika stag. I lay down in a gateway to take the shot but when I put the crosshairs on him was uncomfortable with the size of the crosshair relative to the deer, a big advantage of a fixed scope. I'd guessed him at 120 yards, I asked my mate how far and he replied that it was 120 yards but I still wasn't happy and didn't shoot him. The stag was beside some bushes and because I was in a gateway I knew exactly where we were so I came back the following night with a rangefinder. I can't remember the exact distance now, all I know is that it must have been a very big stag indeed plus there was more "dead ground" than I knew about as the stag ranged somewhere about 300 yards. Without the rangefinder neither of us could have imagined how wrong we were.

On the other side of this I can see how having someone pull the rangefinder out every 10 seconds just to check things would get old real quick plus, especially with closer shots, there usually isn't time to mess about with gadgets when you should be shooting.

I guess in the end it comes down to knowing the difference between a tool for a job, and when to use it, and having a gadget you want to wave about at every opportunity. I find the rangefinder useful to have but far from essential but I also now I know it is easy to make big mistakes in range guestimation and to not even be aware you've made a mistake.

 

[ChesterP]

Well - perhaps. Except I think you’ve possibly missed my point - perhaps I’ve explained myself badly!! Firstly, information is from what I’ve read online plus a mixture of what I’m finding out as I go along - excuse me if that’s wrong! But I’ve looked at several target clubs in my “local” area - I mention that as there aren’t any actually locally as such - many of them basically won’t even accept an application for membership without a personal recommendation from an existing member - which, when you aren’t local in real terms and (in my case) don’t know any members - almost impossible. So, to go down the route of joining a target shooting club and then once accepted, serving a probationary period etc before being granted full membership which would then allow for such good reason to be used on an FAC seems, to me, to be far more difficult than the route I’ve gone down of getting permission from several local landowners to go hunting on their land and therefore having that as good reason on my FAC application.

As for my comment regarding the OP’s post - I’m referring to the mentions of him not permitting clients etc to shoot over certain distances as to their ability - which I think is exactly what he said.

And as to less haste when posting - you’ve lost me!

It's luck of the draw I'm afraid as to what people may or may not have on their doorstep, but many people that shoot at the clubs I attend travel quite some distance, some drive a few hours each way. Whilst not all accept new membership without recommendation, many will offer guest days and many new slots are "dead man's shoes" so it's up to the individual to evidence their suitability in whatever way they can without personal recommendation. Minimum would be contact details, proof of who you say you are and details of experience to date.

In terms of ability...well, there's plenty out there who never shoot past 200, either because they don't need to (woodland shooting) or because they recognise their limits which is a fundamental virtue imho. Practice makes perfect though....

 

[bogtrotter]

When I were a lad, we used to guess t'ut time by countin' from when we left t'ut ouse, and distance to beasty by lookin' at t'ut sun, through t'ut clouds and then seein' what angle t'shadow from beasty's hindquarters made on t'ut ground before downing t'ut animal wi' sling-shots. I don't know, these new fangled rifles and these new fangled rangefinders...completely unnecessary if y'ask me!

Joking to one side, I was taught to estimate distances, accounting for dead ground, using bracketing (how near does it look and how far could it be?) then taking an average. I used to think I was pretty ok up to 600yds or so but never for accuracy called for when taking a shot, except to maybe 200 yds. Even being 20 yards out only makes around 2.5 inches difference at 200 yds to a typical .308 155gr load, so really, to that distance there's little need where deer are concerned. On the hill I can see where extended shots may be taken you'd want to be sure.

There you just said it out to 200 yards which is the absolute maximum.I will allow a client to take a shot usually 150 unless I really know him very well.

Pm

 

[bogtrotter]

Well just to enlighten some of you my dislike of rangefinders came about all started when I stalked into a roe buck at
Sixty yards told the client to take to which he replied I need to check the distance he then began to rummage in his back pack which had every thing in it including the kitchen sink needles to say by the time he got the buck was in the next county.

 

[bogtrotter]

Well Boggy has got all technical
Stalking today with a client who not only had a rangefinder but also a drone to go look for them
Magic going to get one and fit it out with a rangefinder and built in rifle, and sit at home while the bu@@er goes and shoots deer for me.
Anyone know who supplies remote control Argos

 

[Paul 600]

Well just to enlighten some of you my dislike of rangefinders came about all started when I stalked into a roe buck at
Sixty yards told the client to take to which he replied I need to check the distance he then began to rummage in his back pack which had every thing in it including the kitchen sink needles to say by the time he got the buck was in the next county.

I can understand in that scenario it would drive you crazy!

Used in this conjunction its very good!

Range finding is a personal skill and should be practised regularly. However without a range finder you are probably plucking figures out of the air?

I always advocate using a range finder on a beast before you take a shot. If you also mark the firing point you have an100% aid in finding the shot site should anything not quite go as planned. Used in conjunction with recognisable features you can find the shot site very easily where there should be a wealth of information on shot placement.

 

[zambezi]

Well just to enlighten some of you my dislike of rangefinders came about all started when I stalked into a roe buck at
Sixty yards told the client to take to which he replied I need to check the distance he then began to rummage in his back pack which had every thing in it including the kitchen sink needles to say by the time he got the buck was in the next county.

Now that is a gripe I can understand! A range finder on a 60m shot is uneccessary. Per caorach's post, that sounds like a person wed to gadgets, not stalking.

However, I found it refreshing to see how many seasoned shooters on this forum can quote examples of how they found distance estimation problematic in some circumstances. To deride the use of range finders in any situation would not be wise.

 

[Big_Sparky]

It's luck of the draw I'm afraid as to what people may or may not have on their doorstep, but many people that shoot at the clubs I attend travel quite some distance, some drive a few hours each way. Whilst not all accept new membership without recommendation, many will offer guest days and many new slots are "dead man's shoes" so it's up to the individual to evidence their suitability in whatever way they can without personal recommendation. Minimum would be contact details, proof of who you say you are and details of experience to date.

In terms of ability...well, there's plenty out there who never shoot past 200, either because they don't need to (woodland shooting) or because they recognise their limits which is a fundamental virtue imho. Practice makes perfect though....

To be fair - I’ve found somewhere that are happy to go via a sensible introduction and get to know me and my qualifications route in order to become a member. It’s rather a run out but that’s part and parcel of choosing to live where we are!

Ultimately my original point is that I find it strange that it’s possible (perhaps “easy” wasn’t the right word!) to posses and use a firearm without learning to shoot! Again, just my opinion and experience, but learning to shoot includes learning to judge distance etc (even if you then use an aid in addition to that knowledge).

 

[bogtrotter]

Interesting day today at least so far,not finished yet day one of two possibly three stalking bucks with a young
Lady and camera man they are making a promotional film for a new rifle that has come on the market would not be right for me to say who the manufacturer is at the moment, so don't ask.

Two proper stalks attempted but no bucks shot, one should have been ,but hey that's stalking ,its not easy when you have a camera man following you
A lot of dummy stalks for the camera and a zeroing session again for the camera the rifle had been set up before they
arrived, and a lot of scenic shots more of the same tomorrow plus some fishing and horse riding and a visit to a stately
home but that may be Thursday may not be time tomorrow.
Not that these extras have anything to do with the rifle but will add interest to the film.
Also a question and answer session with me on stalking think that will be tomorrow ,I think he said ten minutes don't
know if I know enough about stalking to talk that long lol
Will maybe get a chance to tell them what I think of rangefinders only joking
However was asked how far a feature was today and said 100 metres the camera man checked it with his rangefinder
and it was only 98 he was really annoyed to find out his rangefinder is faulty.lol.
My previous post regarding drones was a joke, there was a drone today but it was not looking for deer
it was filming us while we were stalking.
As I said an interesting day.

 

[bogtrotter]

Finished filming this morning its been an interesting couple of days harder work than I imagined it would be.but I must say I have rather enjoyed it.
Sponsorship plays a big part everything from the optics used , to boots and clothing and the sponsors expect their brands to be prominent in the film so much so that I had to cover up my binocular strap as it portrayed the makers name and its not one endorsed by the sponsors.
Off camera it gave me a chance to compare my Vortex binoculars against some top end glass ,and yes as you would guess the top end glass was better ,but in truth not much better the top glass was just a little clearer at last light ,I could
still see when they had to pull the plug as they could no longer see to film.
I was not looking forward to being interviewed on camera ,but it seemed to work out ok.
Two and a half days of work will be edited and condensed in to what will eventually be a twenty five minute film.
Who said you can't teach an old dog new tricks.

 

[VSS]

I think that if I could afford a decent set of range finder binos I would, and probably only use the range finder function occasionally when on unfamiliar terrain or if for any reason I was unsure about the distance. I wouldn't want to carry a separate range finder.
On the whole I'm pretty good at estimating range, which comes of having spent a few winters setting folds for thousands of sheep grazing off stubble turnips behind 50 metre electric flexinets. Being able to judge, at a glance, how many rolls of flexinet it would take to do a particular run of fence saved me a lot of to-ing and fro-ing pacing things out. So now I just guesstimate range in multiples of 50m. Even so, I am very occasionally way out in my estimation. For example, shot a prickett a few days ago which I was sure was a good 200m, but in reality it was only a little over 150. Shooting diagonally across a long thin field created a strange illusion of distance.

 

[FISH BOY]

I have RF binos, but will only use them if I have time, which is rare in the woods. The majority of their use is when on unfamiliar ground in a seat learning the lie of the land.

Like many, my guestermations were ok, but having a RF now for me completely takes the estimation out of the equasion, giving the exact information for a humane shot or the urge to get closer. As every shot is different, I consider them to be like a satnav in a car going to a new place - yes I can read a map, yes I can read the signs, I can even look at the sun to get a sense of direction, but to have the information presented to you to avoid getting anything wrong must be deemed as a good thing, evolution rather than cheating.

Having said all that, sub 100 yards wouldnt even think about them as I would be straight up on the sticks.

 

[Tazz]

Any use of tech in hunting tends to divide opinion I have RF Swaros given I am going to use binos to look for the quarry for no more effort I can also check the distance accurately. I consider myself an average distance calculator but often surprise myself by how far out I am if on strange ground or when in Scotland or Africa. Stalk with good PH’s and Gillies and most are very good out to 200 yards but not infallible. My rifles are zeroed circa inch and half high at a 100 yards and depending on calibre 243-270-300 WM within an inch at 200 and so I rarely move the ballistic turrets. In the U.K. the majority of my shots are under 200, the RF’s are handy to confirm that, what’s the downside other than cost and a bit more weight which I am happy to put up with

 

[Island]

Not like you to stir up trouble Jim!

As you have no doubt learned over the last few years I like to think of myself as somewhat of a "traditionalist", I like to stalk. To my mind, and in the broadest terms, there are only two distances that matter: "close enough" and "too far". What numbers are applied to each are a matter for the individual stalker, but each should be confident enough in their own ability (both shooting and estimating range) to know their own limits. A true stalker will also readily admit to being fallible. I have shot red deer in excess of 300yds when required, and I have missed roe deer at 40yds, no technology in the world will compensate for the fact that I am human and every so often I make an a**e of it...

I believe that range-finders do have their uses, and to my mind that is primarily as a training tool. Use one whilst out with the dog. Guess the range to a tree then measure it. The same with a rock, or a fence post, or a rambler, or a patch of whin, or a bench. Build up a mental library over all types of terrain and in all weathers. But whatever else, do not come to rely on them as a substitute for your eye (or the eye of an experienced stalker). There will come a day when you drop it on the hill, or the battery goes flat or the electronics decide to give up the ghost.

For me it is not technology that causes the problem, it is the over-reliance on technology that we see in all parts of stalking nowadays; from the latest rifle made of materials that weren't on the periodic table ten years ago in the latest "must-have-deadly-accurate-flat-shooting-highpower-ultra-accurate-best-calibre-ever", to thermal-imagers taking the place of a pair of binoculars and the ability to spot a beast. They can all be valuable aids, but they should not become substitutes for experience and learned-skill / ability. Increasingly nowadays they are being used for this purpose though, a short-cut to putting in the time.

Having said all that, I will (somewhat hypocritically) consider replacing my current bino's with a RF pair when the time comes. Having the inbuilt, and readily to hand, ability to confirm an estimated range is probably a valuable check in welfare terms. And, as mentioned above, we all occasionally make mistakes...

 

[bogtrotter]

Well some of us make mistakes lol.
Seriously though I agree with everything you have said , and though I might have given the impression that I'm anti RF
what I really am is anti A hole with RF of course it has its uses especially so when combined in a pair of binos just don't think much of a range finder when its at the bottom of a back pack thats got to be emptied with all that entails before it can be deployed.

 

[Big_Sparky]

Well some of us make mistakes lol.
Seriously though I agree with everything you have said , and though I might have given the impression that I'm anti RF
what I really am is anti A hole with RF of course it has its uses especially so when combined in a pair of binos just don't think much of a range finder when its at the bottom of a back pack thats got to be emptied with all that entails before it can be deployed.

Out of interest, if I’m not being too nosey, where do you work/stalk around? And is it something you do yourself or on behalf of an estate etc? Wanting to start to build some ideas for good people to get some stalking time & training with - cheers

 

[bogtrotter]

Out of interest, if I’m not being too nosey, where do you work/stalk around? And is it something you do yourself or on behalf of an estate etc? Wanting to start to build some ideas for good people to get some stalking time & training with - cheers

Used to be in full time estate employment, these days mainly employed by a large sporting agency,mainly west coast Scotland,
but open to offers " Have Gun Will Travel"