Reloading: setting up the dies

[Remington 700]

Well I've been to see Aftab Hamid at Reloading Solutions. He gave me an education into reloading, without belittling me. I've now purchased a number of items the main one being a starters guide to reloading, "The ABC's of Reloading" other items include case trimmer, comparator body, stoney straight O.A.L. gauge, stoney headspace and a pocket cleaner and some new RCBS .30-06 dies.
and Yes the .30-06 dies I bought from eBay were knackered, basically the full length die's throat was excessively compressing the neck of the case leaving scoring. When a bullet head was entered into the neck it was leaving a rippled effect below the bullet and just above the shoulder.


http://www.reloadingsolutions.com/

 

[Remington 700]

Matt wrote:
I'm all for useful debate, just as long as it doesn't decend into a slagging match...

My thoughts exactly... We can all learn from each other.

 

[JAYB]

Mat,

I have no wish to get into a slagging match, in fact I go out of my way to avoid them, but if I do not understand something that is being said then I like to find out why, equally if I have a different point of view or understanding of something I like to put that, so that if I am wrong I can correct it and therefore learn.

I still can't understand you and your "in theory" reasoning, it is a fact when a cartridge is fired the brass case expands, it has to in order to form an effective gas seal against the chamber wall, and then it contracts. Irrespective, of whether the brass was uniform on the way in, on the way out it is and customised to your chamber, and how is a reamer going to cut a chamber that is not true. As for a case being difficult to extract, this is a recognised sign of too much pressure. My loads are neither soft or hot, they have been developed to suit the rifle.

The paragraph you have put in about ".................... different rounds required different amounts of effort..................." I don't understand that at all. What does that mean, how does full length resizing set your mind at rest.

I see that you are a target shooter, I was always given to understand that target shooters preferred to neck size as it is better for accuracy, guess I got that wrong. I have little or no knowledge of target shooting, that last time I had to shoot a target was on my DSC 1, so I do not know what you mean by rapid fire shooting. However trust me when I say that if you have to put a second shot into a beast that is running and it involves a change of position as well, then it don't come a lot more rapid than that, and I have yet to fumble one of those.

You are certainly one up on me I have never heard of anyone trying to force a bullet 20 thou beyond the lands, in fact I would not have thought it possible, to my way of thinking it would have just seated the head deeper.

An interesting thread. Good luck on your stalk I take it you will be after a buck, whereabouts are you going for that.

John

 

[JAYB]

Elma, Sounds as if you are all set to get deeper immersed into the world of reloading. Lets hope you can get to the bottom of your problem pretty quickly, shame about your e-bay dies.

John

 

[Mat]

how is a reamer going to cut a chamber that is not true

If that were the case, then why do people pay lots of money for top gunsmiths to replace barrels? Reamers can and do wander, then the lathe could be past its best and have wobbly bearings, the bore may not be set directly in line with the axis of the lathe... Blunt reamer, reamer not cutting on all flutes, chatter... The list goes on...

The same applies to case wall thickness: it simply isn't perfectly uniform, one side will expand more than another, so the result is a case that conforms perfectly to the chamber, but that chamber may not be round and the case head may not be concentric with the rest of the case.

It all depends on the quality of your rifle / chamber / brass: such eccentricities may be tiny and of little consequence. If you don't have a v block and a dial gauge, you may never know.

Yes, sticky extraction is a sign of high pressure. I know of people who have routinely used a mallet to open their bolts (to my mind, they're nuts ). It just goes to show: it IS possible for a case to reach a point where contraction due to elasticity is not enough and the case DOES become larger than the chamber. Although modern actions are very solid, they do still have some give and the bolt head will move back on recoil allowing increase of headspace. Admittedly it won't be as bad as a rear locking Enfield action.

Anyway, my point is this: if you only ever neck size, you will almost certainly reach a point where chambering is not as easy as you started. This depends on how stiff your loads are and the age / history of your brass. If you don't load often, you it may never happen for you.

One top Match Rifle shooter belonging to another email list (of which I am a member) claims that he's always only ever neck sized and never had a problem, but he was definitely in a minority. (Match Rifle is a minority discipline which involves shooting the 308 win cartridge at distances 1000-1200 yards)

I have personally observed that expansion of brass was not uniform in the same box, some rounds chambered easily, others didn't. Then velocity appeared to drop off with increased case volume.

I think the neck-sizing vs full length sizing debate is split:
There are advocates for both. Neck sizing is certainly easier and perhaps in the past, people went on about rounds being fire formed to your chamber, but others disagree.

My other reason for full length sizing, is that I use a Wilson hand die for seating: it makes the Redding competition seater look VERY loose. Even with my custom built rifle with the tightest chamber you've ever seen: fired rounds stick in the seater, neck sizing just isn't an option.

For me, the main problem with full length sizing used to be the lube: I tried a lube pad, spray lube, spray lube using a special rack... Too much lube would cause shoulder dents, not enough and pull out of the sizing die was difficult. Add to that, the distance to the shoulder varied according to amount of lube. In the end, I discovered that part of the problem was Lyman dies: rough as you like. Next problem was the RCBS press: it was wonky and the shell holder didn't line up with the die. The Lyman spray lube I tried also didn't lubricate very well and I always managed to spray too much on. I now use Imperial Sizing die wax (made by Redding) and it is perfect: rub a tiny amount between your fingers then rub a small trace onto the case and that's all you need.

 

[Remington 700]

how is a reamer going to cut a chamber that is not true

If that were the case, then why do people pay lots of money for top gunsmiths to replace barrels? Reamers can and do wander, then the lathe could be past its best and have wobbly bearings, the bore may not be set directly in line with the axis of the lathe... Blunt reamer, reamer not cutting on all flutes, chatter... The list goes on...

.

I went on the BDS Deer Managers Course last year at Larkhill one of the guest speakers was Steve Bowers 'Specialist Rifle Services' A gunsmith that also writes for the Shooting Times. He showed us examples of what he called Monday Barrels/actions and Friday Barrels/actions. One remington action although appeared true to the naked eye was actually machined liked a bananna (Friday action). As Steve was blue printing the action you could see one end of the serial number being machined away. That showed us just how much out of true the action was. Any areas that needed filling he used a compound to fill these areas 'Lapping' I believe he called it.
A very interesting talk and enjoyed by all the students.

One last thing, I can only apologise for posting this thread in the Forum Index:- I should have posted this in Reloading.

Thanks all for your input.
Now got some bedtime reading to do.
EF

 

[JAYB]

Mat,
Just read your reply, it took a while but I did it. You do use a lot of words and say a lot, but you never answer any questions. Never mind lets have a go at a reply, I can make no promises as you seem to be very technically minded and experienced.

"If that were the case, then why do people pay lots of money for top
gunsmiths to replace barrels? Reamers can and do wander, then the
lathe could be past its best and have wobbly bearings, the bore may
not be set directly in line with the axis of the lathe... Blunt reamer, reamer not cutting on all flutes, chatter... The list goes on..."

Is this true? Since the advent of the Timken roller bearing system lathe bearings are adjustable for wear. A good gunsmith's lathe is in good condition or he is not a good gunsmith. Even if the reamer was mounted off centre and managed to cut the resulting hole would - all other things being equal - be round.

"The same applies to case wall thickness: it simply isn't perfectly uniform, one side will expand more than another, so the result is a case that conforms perfectly to the chamber, but that chamber may not be round and the case head may not be concentric with the rest of the
case."

Sounds good and may be true to an extent, but it depends on the powder and the amount. It is possible to have a cartridge expand on the side away from the powder charge, e.g. a powder charge lying on the bottom of the case MAY expand the case more on the side opposite the charge.

"It just goes to show: it IS possible for a case to reach a point where
contraction due to elasticity is not enough and the case DOES become larger than the chamber. Although modern actions are very solid, they do still have some give and the bolt head will move back on recoil allowing increase of head-space. Admittedly it won't be as bad as a rear locking Enfield action..................."

The hard chambering is due to the repeated swelling of the head area, not the cartridge becoming larger than the case. No brass will last forever but, if it is only neck sized it is only the neck that will be worked and will overtime become brittle and need replacing. It is quite normal for neck sized cases to outlast full length resized ones, as the brass here will not only expand and contract when fired but there is also the additional work involved in resizing, that poor brass really suffers. I expect your neck sizing target friend never experienced any trouble as he inspected his brass at each reloading, as we all should, and renewed the brass earlier than most. Modern front locking lug guns flex but do not stretch.

"I have personally observed that expansion of brass was not uniform in the same box, some rounds chambered easily, others didn't. Then velocity appeared to drop off with increased case volume."

I don't understand what you mean here, sorry.

"For me, the main problem with full length sizing used to be the lube: I tried a lube pad, spray lube, spray lube using a special rack... Too much lube would cause shoulder dents, not enough and pull out of the sizing die was difficult. Add to that, the distance to the shoulder varied according to amount of lube. In the end, I discovered that part of the problem was Lyman dies: rough as you like. Next problem was the RCBS press ..........."

Your right Imperial is the best, but if RCBS and one shot won't work then it would suggest that your rounds are too hot What caliber do you shoot and what loads do you use, I would be interested to know.

John

 

[Mat]

Is this true? Since the advent of the Timken roller bearing system lathe bearings are adjustable for wear. A good gunsmith's lathe is in good condition or he is not a good gunsmith. Even if the reamer was mounted off centre and managed to cut the resulting hole would - all other things being equal - be round.

Tell that to Remington, if they're capable of producing banana shaped actions, then banana shaped chambers aren't much of a stretch. I know my old Remy's factory barrel was not threaded on straight, so I can't imagine the chamber was any better.

Sounds good and may be true to an extent, but it depends on the powder and the amount. It is possible to have a cartridge expand on the side away from the powder charge, e.g. a powder charge lying on the bottom of the case MAY expand the case more on the side opposite the charge.

I'm not sure the lay of the powder has much effect, I reckon that loose chamber and extractor / ejector pressure has more effect.

The hard chambering is due to the repeated swelling of the head area, not the cartridge becoming larger than the case.

I disagree with that: oversized case near the head region makes chambering IMPOSSIBLE, I've seen someone snap a bolt handle off after he borrowed some ammo - which had been FL resized but was still too wide to fit. I've personally made that blunder too after getting the wrong neck sized ammo for the wrong rifle, I fortunately got away without damage (another reason not to neck size! )

No brass will last forever but, if it is only neck sized it is only the neck that will be worked and will overtime become brittle and need replacing. It is quite normal for neck sized cases to outlast full length resized ones, as the brass here will not only expand and contract when fired but there is also the additional work involved in resizing, that poor brass really suffers.

Not disputing that: neck sized ammo will last much longer...

Your right Imperial is the best, but if RCBS and one shot won't work then it would suggest that your rounds are too hot What caliber do you shoot and what loads do you use, I would be interested to know.

I haven't tried other spray lube, just stick to Imperial.

I currently shoot mostly 308, 155 grn Lapua Scenar, Ruag brass, 39.0grn of Vhit N140, which is a bit on the light side admittedly...

 

[JAYB]

Mat,

I find you very difficult to follow, you dismiss things out of hand, you make statements that I can't understand and then refuse to explain them when asked to.

You agree that no brass lasts forever, then you report on ammunition that has been so overworked that it was impossible to chamber. Then you say that the particular person with this ammunition, which he had borrowed, went on to break the bolt handle when he was attempting to chamber it. I would say that you shoot with some insanely dangerous people, but you will tell me that you did not know this person.

What about your gun and load. you report that you shoot mostly 308 and give details of a load that is on the light side you say, yet you complain of sizing difficulties that are indicative of hot loads.

I don't think I want to discuss reloading with you anymore because you do not discuss anything, you make statements that don't add up, and never clarify some of your confusing statements.

Something wrong here.

John

 

[243win]

John
doesn't sound right light loads and all that trouble, takes some going to snap a bolt handle, if you know you have a defective chamber, it needs fixed, this doesn't seem to help elmer sort his 3006 out.
Elmer
i don't too far if you still have trouble(leamington spa)

steve

 

[Remington 700]

Thanks 243Win

I'm up and running so to speak. Now reading the ABC's of reloading book.

Cases have been batched; trimmed and chamfered, pockets cleaned and tumbled.
Dies have been set using manufacturers recommendations. Also used my stoney point OAL tool to work out seating. I can’t believe how far forward the bullet would have to be seated for it to be a few thou' off the lands. Personally, I think I will settle for a factory seating depth for the time being.

I tried a mock up round to see if would fit in the rifle. No Problems, at last I'm getting there.

 

[JAYB]

Your right Steve, I'm not going to play this game anymore, there is no help for this for anyone.

There you go Elma, results already

John

 

[Mat]

I find you very difficult to follow, you dismiss things out of hand, you make statements that I can't understand and then refuse to explain them when asked to.

I apologise if I'm not coming across coherently, but I am trying to answer your points... I'm not trying to dodge any questions! It's not easy having a forum conversation covering every single point.

Then you say that the particular person with this ammunition, which he had borrowed, went on to break the bolt handle when he was attempting to chamber it. I would say that you shoot with some insanely dangerous people, but you will tell me that you did not know this person.

I've lost count of the number of rifles I've owned and the loads I've used in them. I will try to explain, but it might take a while... It certainly doesn't make sense the way you've summarised it and has not happened that way, if you want me to name names then fine...

The incident with the bolt handle happened about a year ago, a chap called Mark D had just received his Tubb 2000 in 260 rem. He borrowed some ammo that Mark B had loaded. FL sized, so it shouldn't have been a problem. At this point, the ammo did not chamber and basically, in trying to eject said round, the (admittedly rather weedy) bolt handle snapped off. The end result was that we radioed the office, the armourer popped out in his Land Rover, drove the (loaded) rifle off the point. Not quite sure how they fixed it, but Fultons eventually got the bolt out. Fred James (the armourer) is not exactly unknown, so if you don't believe me, then ask him! I was trying to make the point that round oversized in the case head region get seriously stuck, not just hard to chamber! In this example, I wouldn't classify either of Mark B or Mark D as acting dangerously, s*it happens, the Tubb 2000 comes with a very tight chamber.

The ammunition that failed to chamber in my case, was when I had a Steyr Scout in 308, and my RPA target rifle, also in 308. I had neck sized ammo for both, but the Scout had a much tighter chamber, so the ammo from the RPA got stuck. Nothing to do with overworked brass. Fortunately for me, the Scout didn't break in the process of me getting the round out.

As for guy who told me he unloaded using a mallet, I shall refer to him as Matt G - a long range pistol shooter, who as far as I can tell are definitely insane. I've heard plenty of other stories that back this up... You'll know him if you see him, I call him the yeti due to his long hair and beard. If you ever bump into any of the UK long range pistol shooters, they're bound to know him, because there aren't that many of them around. If you're ever near Bournemouth, Gillie Howe of Modern & Antique firearms will talk to you at length about reloading, (he's a Long Range pistol shooter).

As for the load I listed above, it's one I'm currently using, that is not to say I haven't used others in the past. Sizing difficulties are all in the past, I just don't bother with neck sizing any more.

If you've got access to old copies of Target Gun, John Carmichael wrote a long series of articles titled 'The long range rifleman' - it has photos of all sorts of case / chamber difficulties as well as experiments he's conducted. Again, he is happy to talk at length about reloading and shooting. His company HPS makes some of the best centrefire target ammo in the UK and has a trade stand at Bisley during all the major meetings.

A forum is a place for discussion, I am just trying to get my views across and share my experiences, I'm sorry if I come across as being arsey!

 

[Mat]

Just re-read my other post, no it doesn't really hang together...

Dunno, things always sound better in my head Must be past my bed time...

 

[Remington 700]

Too much lube would cause shoulder dents, not enough and pull out of the sizing die was difficult. .

I can understand the latter, but why would lube cause shoulder dents?

 

[Beowulf]

Blimey John why bother!
You are a very experienced reloader and stalker and a gentleman of our sport. Don't waste your time trying to help people how won't appreciate your experience.
My friend, we will have a laugh about this when I'm next up your way. Thanks for sending me the reloading dvd you made for me, I look forward to the next volume.
I'm counting off the days on the calendar, it will soon be the Sika rut and we can get busy!

 

[JAYB]

Your right Steve, I will not bother with this anymore, it is useless. I just hope nobody who is trying to get to grips with reloading takes too much notice of some of the bad practices which seem to be commonplace in his world. In my opinion, for what it's worth, there is a lot of testicles being spoken here.

For goodness sake if a round won't chamber, it wont chamber you do not try to stuff it in so hard that that you break the bolt handle extracting it. It's all B*****ks and I don't need it.

John

 

[Mat]

Too much lube would cause shoulder dents, not enough and pull out of the sizing die was difficult. .

I can understand the latter, but why would lube cause shoulder dents?

Elma, apologies for hijacking this thread, what started off as me expressing my opinion has been blown out of proportion.

Anyway, if you put too much lube on the case, you get a build up around the shoulder and it causes a dent. I'd be surprised if your copy of ABC's of reloading doesn't have a picture of it.

Having said that, Lyman and RCBS dies (as far as I can remember) have a small hole near the shoulder to release any lube or air and is much less likely to cause such dents.

 

[Mat]

For goodness sake if a round won't chamber, it wont chamber you do not try to stuff it in so hard that that you break the bolt handle extracting it. It's all B*****ks and I don't need it.

You would be very surprised as to how little force you need to get a round well and truly stuck - I don't suggest that anyone tries either.

 

[Andy L]

Obviously some very strong opinions and I have no knowledge on the subject as I don't reload. Unfortunately, this threaad has put it even further from my mind and I think I will stick to my factory loads.
I can cock up puting up a book shelf and that won't blow my thumb and half my face off!!!