Response from NABIS to police chiefs on moderators off ticket

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charlie222

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Their main issue (copied below) would actually be resolved by people being able to get hold of better quality moderators to use as it would allow bullets to be linked to firearms much easier and accurately. 😂🤦🏻‍♂️

In certain circumstances, the use of sound moderators can introduce additional challenges to the

process of linking firearms to fired bullets. The use of a sound moderator can remove/damage

some of the associated fine detail used to link a bullet to a specific gun. Sound moderators,

particularly those of poor quality or improper design, may inadvertently alter the surface

characteristics of bullets as they pass through the device. This alteration can include the

deformation or flattening of bullet surfaces, which may obscure or distort existing markings or

tearing of jackets. The interaction between the bullet and the internal components of the sound

moderator, such as baffles or expansion chambers, can effectively erase or significantly degrade

the unique striations, rifling marks, or other identifying features present on the bullet surface.
 
nun_hunter said:
Their main issue (copied below) would actually be resolved by people being able to get hold of better quality moderators to use as it would allow bullets to be linked to firearms much easier and accurately. 😂🤦🏻‍♂️

In certain circumstances, the use of sound moderators can introduce additional challenges to the

process of linking firearms to fired bullets. The use of a sound moderator can remove/damage

some of the associated fine detail used to link a bullet to a specific gun. Sound moderators,

particularly those of poor quality or improper design, may inadvertently alter the surface

characteristics of bullets as they pass through the device. This alteration can include the

deformation or flattening of bullet surfaces, which may obscure or distort existing markings or

tearing of jackets. The interaction between the bullet and the internal components of the sound

moderator, such as baffles or expansion chambers, can effectively erase or significantly degrade

the unique striations, rifling marks, or other identifying features present on the bullet surface.
Click to expand...
Really - if that was happening the moderator is too tight for the calibre and surely:

  • Accuracy would be affected!
  • The operator would be aware of the issue (noise, vibration/shock)!
  • The moderator would fail quite quickly!
I am really getting quite concerned by some of the Governments so-called experts!
 
wytonpjs said:
Really - if that was happening the moderator is too tight for the calibre and surely:

  • Accuracy would be affected!
  • The operator would be aware of the issue (noise, vibration/shock)!
  • The moderator would fail quite quickly!
I am really getting quite concerned by some of the Governments so-called experts!
Click to expand...
Eaxtly this. If these are the experts and this is all they can come up with as a reason to keep moderators on FACs then I am seriously concerned about their "expert" status.
 
wytonpjs said:
Really - if that was happening the moderator is too tight for the calibre and surely:

  • Accuracy would be affected!
  • The operator would be aware of the issue (noise, vibration/shock)!
  • The moderator would fail quite quickly!
I am really getting quite concerned by some of the Governments so-called experts!
Click to expand...
I dare say the intended victim may survive to become a star witness also!
 
They need to make it clear that they are not confusing improvised sound moderators used by criminals with professionally manufactured sound moderators used by certificate holders.
If they are basic their claims on data from criminal investigations, then it seems likely that the are relevant to the former rather than the latter type.
Indeed, only the former -criminals- would tolerate contact between the projectile and the moderator, or have a moderator designed to work in this way (e.g. with "wipes").
 
wytonpjs said:
Really - if that was happening the moderator is too tight for the calibre and surely:

  • Accuracy would be affected!
  • The operator would be aware of the issue (noise, vibration/shock)!
  • The moderator would fail quite quickly!
I am really getting quite concerned by some of the Governments so-called experts!
Click to expand...
I don’t think the criminals care if the mod is fitted correctly lol
nun_hunter said:
Eaxtly this. If these are the experts and this is all they can come up with as a reason to keep moderators on FACs then I am seriously concerned about their "expert" status.
Click to expand...
what’s the problem with the experts statement?
 
There's a lot in that report that suggests to me moderators will stay on ticket.

The following statement is particularly interesting as it makes me wonder what their take is on rifles built on the popular AR platform that for many scream 'tactical' operator:

"Using a sound moderator in association with a firearm can be viewed as visually more threatening ......."

K
 
Klenchblaize said:
There's a lot in that report that suggests to me moderators will stay on ticket.

The following statement is particularly interesting as it makes me wonder what their take is on rifles built on the popular AR platform that for many scream 'tactical' operator:

"Using a sound moderator in association with a firearm can be viewed as visually more threatening ......."

K
Click to expand...
The report is more than a year old. It was posted on here before. So it was available to be read prior to the recent decision by government to propose that mods be reclassified. So I'm guessing its points have already been noted and considered to be relatively insignificant.
 
Klenchblaize said:
There's a lot in that report that suggests to me moderators will stay on ticket.

The following statement is particularly interesting as it makes me wonder what their take is on rifles built on the popular AR platform that for many scream 'tactical' operator:

"Using a sound moderator in association with a firearm can be viewed as visually more threatening ......."

K
Click to expand...
I think it’s just there two pence with work they do. It seems to be common sense information they are giving.

I’ll be surprised if and when mods come off ticket you can just go a buy one. Perhaps you’ll have to have a FAC to show you need one and the onus will be on gun shops to check you need one, or something similar.
 
purdeydog said:
I don’t think the criminals care if the mod is fitted correctly lol

what’s the problem with the experts statement?
Click to expand...
Their issue is that poorly made or aligned mods can damage bullets exiting a gun and make identification more difficult. At present the vast majority of mods available to criminals are poorly made DIY jobs, or possibly a very tiny number of stolen mods.

By suddenly flooding the market with nice well made legal to buy mods that don't damage bullets it'll make their job easier to identify bullets and the gun they were fired from. Hence my comment that they don't really understand the argument they are making.

The fact criminals don't really use mods at all anyway (mostly because it makes a small gun even harder to conceal) is a moot point lost on them.

In my 13 years as an ARV officer I never once came across the criminal use of a moderator. Even the guy machining very good quality functional guns in Hailsham wasn't churning out mods for his clientele.
 
wytonpjs said:
Really - if that was happening the moderator is too tight for the calibre and surely:

  • Accuracy would be affected!
  • The operator would be aware of the issue (noise, vibration/shock)!
  • The moderator would fail quite quickly!
I am really getting quite concerned by some of the Governments so-called experts!
Click to expand...
Day of the Jackal, original movie is obviously where the expert gets his information.
 
nun_hunter said:
Their issue is that poorly made or aligned mods can damage bullets exiting a gun and make identification more difficult. At present the vast majority of mods available to criminals are poorly made DIY jobs, or possibly a very tiny number of stolen mods.

By suddenly flooding the market with nice well made legal to buy mods that don't damage bullets it'll make their job easier to identify bullets and the gun they were fired from. Hence my comment that they don't really understand the argument they are making.

The fact criminals don't really use mods at all anyway (mostly because it makes a small gun even harder to conceal) is a moot point lost on them.

In my 13 years as an ARV officer I never once came across the criminal use of a moderator. Even the guy machining very good quality functional guns in Hailsham wasn't churning out mods for his clientele.
Click to expand...
Hailshams foremost Formula 1 gearbox refurbishment I believe
 
That seems pretty obvious. Im Sure the science geeks know what there up to. No logical reason to distrust them.
 
charlie222 said:

I've just stumbled upon this online. Its a report from the forensic ballistic chappies sent to all the chief constables. I expect @Conor O'Gorman and BASC might like to counter some of their arguments?

Not looking for a bun fight, just passing on what I think is relevant.

Cheers C
Click to expand...
Thanks, I will pass it onto our firearms team. The consultation outcome is worth a read below, with consideration for all the arguments that were submitted during the consultation including from NABIS.

www.gov.uk

Firearms licensing: proposal to remove sound moderators from firearms licensing controls - government response (accessible)

www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
nun_hunter said:
In my 13 years as an ARV officer I never once came across the criminal use of a moderator. Even the guy machining very good quality functional guns in Hailsham wasn't churning out mods for his clientele.
Click to expand...

It happens regularly. Likewise, illegal importations have also seen the inclusion of “silencers” on a regular basis.

The point should always be hammered home, “there is next to no correlation in the legitimate and lawful use of firearms and criminal use”

It still stands that firearms licensing depts are spending 35% of their time dealing with moderators. Keeping them on ticket is expensive with very little benefit to public safety.

News story this month of “assassins kit”…

www.bbc.co.uk

Garden gun-maker manufactured assassination kits for crime groups - BBC News

Undercover police captured Ronald Knowles delivering pistols and ammunition to a notorious drugs boss.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk
 
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