Roe density per km2?

[ben_in_the_woods]

I manage 4,500 ha of commercial forestry and we don't count ****, but we do undertake nearest neighbour counts and our damage is between 15-40% despite shooting hard year after year . We do not fence as we have capercaillie, black grouse. The cost and effectiveness of fencing small clearfells where we have an abundance of badgers is questionable at £9.00/m plus annual maintenance.

We have almost 100% of does with twins and shoot what we can see and shoot safely and humanely. The design of modern commercial forestry with multiple ages in a circa 50ha area provides great woodlands for wildlife and landscape, but also great B&B conditions for roe deer particularly. We shoot at night to try and keep on top of browsing. We have no sheep or goat mouths to muddy the water.

The comments about 'no deer management in commercial forestry' are just not understanding the management objectives, that is grow quality timber not providing easy deer. The reality is that under felling licenses there is a commitment to restock at a given stocking. Getting this wrong is expensive to remedy. Shooting deer to achieve this with the design demands of commercial forestry cannot be done by over selective culling. In my 25yr experience if it is safe and legal to shoot then shoot it. There is no shortage of roe deer around here in the region for recreational stalkers, just not in our commercial woods.

 

[Lupus]

Never got to meet Ronnie himself. The gentleman I referred to was one of his colleagues back in the days of EFG when tax breaks allowed for the niceties of forestry, such as employing all the wildlife staff in Eskdalemuir.

I mentioned the Eskdalemuir Experience to said gentleman, to which he chuckled and said Ronnie never let the truth get in the way of a good story, and although the ideas presented were more or less sound enough, they weren't, in reality, fully adhered to. As I said this was from one who worked there.

He was, however, a big proponent of the forest design element, essentially on the basis that if you can't see them you can't shoot them, so wide rides, open burnsides, sacrificial patches of hardwood to draw out deer, etc, etc.

What he didn't buy into was the highly selective cull. And from what he told me Ronnie didn't either once the tax breaks went and the forest had to start making money itself.

Wolfie

 

[Lupus]

What Ben just said is the reality of it.

Wolfie

 

[countrryboy]

Aye while ronnie did like a good story, But back in those days stalkers would be far more selective and could afford to be as cull targets were so much lower as beats were far far smaller, prob more so in Scotland where night authorities are now petty common.
In those days FC would be managing deer just as well, in those days FC rangers were almost the only people taking stalking clients out in this area, mainly for bucks.
If ur going back to 70's or 80's (or even later on some estates) it was the norm in this area for all deer control to be done on fox drives with a pocket of heavies. Was actually quite rare to use a rifle to shoot deer back then and forestry companies woud be the ony folk doing it with rifles.
U could really argue that deer management or even stalking is quite a modern thing (apart from ur hill reds) and is mibee still evloving and it's not as old as some make out.


These woods were not some deer deserted wilderness's, but also to be fair in those days most of trees would still be 1st gen mature woods so could carry a higher population, and the harvesting/restocking phases would just be starting. But even going up there now u'd still see deer and could be almost harvesting the 2nd crop of timber now in some areas
But wot ever stage forest is at going from 4-6 stalkers down to 1 is always going to have an impact on management and wot u can physically do, no matter wot u'd like to do or science tells u.

But back in those days my town was full of forestry workers EFG always had a mini bus left my town every morning as well as 1 from fountains, and 2/3 FC plus a few FC meastro vans and god knows how many SE cutting/thinning and planting squads, and most neighbouring towns would be the same. Hardly any of those jobs even exist now. The EFG (or wot was) and FC local yards are shut down and have no workers employed, even the FC now hardly have a cutter or worker to do any work themselves


Basically as i've said all along and like ben above says most rangers are now under so much pressure it really is just a numbers game and much of the science/management is just not really possible while ur managing such massive areas

 

[bogtrotter]

The last couple of posts make perfect sense, but not all roe deer management is in commercial forestry my previous posts were on the general management of roe, managing roe on an estate is quite a bit different from managing commercial forestry which I also have some experience of.

Commercial forestry the key factor is keeping damage to a minimum ,and to be honest their interest in deer management does not go much
Beyond that, on an estate environment you are trying to sustain a population that the acreage available to them can support while at the same time keeping any damage to an acceptable level.

 

[riverdog]

Spot on Bogtrotter. The estate owner wants to know how many deer can be shot without completely decimating the deer which he sees as an integral part of the woodland's amenity value. Hence my need to gestimate densities and create a sensitive cull target! He's the boss, not me! Sounds like there are many and varied approaches to this dark art!!! Thanks everybody for your help.

 

[Taff]

This thread is becoming worrying, as people are starting to talk common sense, there is far to much BS talked about culling rates and management of wild deer in forestry blocks, at least you are all talking about per square kilometre, not on the usual my 30 acre patch.

 

[Erik Hamburger]

Cotswolds:
Density can be quite high, my stalking partner culls some 10-12 Roe deer p.a. in a 60 Acres woodland; I cull some 8-10 Roe p.a. in a 50 Acres woodland, together we have just gained permission for a smaller 20 Acres woodland where we have counted from 6 up to 14 Roe, which suggests a population of some 20-22 Roe, which seems very high, but is based on observations and thermal counts.
These estimates are based on the formula of taking the average count over a succession of days, x 3, = a realistic estimate of the total population.
To maintain that Roe deer population at the same level: Cull approx. 30-35% p.a. of the estimated population, with the focus on Does (70-80% of the annual cull should be does).
Where an in-balance between sexes exist (Due to trophie hunting in the area) adjust to try to achieve a more balanced population of 50% buck and 50% doe.

 

[countrryboy]

Riverdale. How did u carry out ur dung count??