Sako S20 Cerakote issue

We switched to DLC (Diamond Like Carbon) for anything that can take DLC. DLC is vastly superior to Cerakote when compared for abrasion resistance, bonding, temperature, resistance to surface marks, and pretty well every other metric. The only problem with DLC is the cost, especially if you are dealing with one-offs or low volume, or if it has a large surface area.
We still do a lot of items in Cerakote, using only E Series now, because Cerakote is cheaper, and for no other reason. If anyone wants litre sized tubs of H grade, we have a few going cheap. Colours graphite black and black.
As a quick demo for DLC, we invite people to take their car keys and try and scratch it, drop it to dink it. It leaves not a mark.
Car keys make a mess of Cerakote, and if you ask me about dinks and flakes, I have a library of photos of woe to share.

If you have a steel barrel, then old fashioned rust bluing is easily repaired, robust, and so long as you keep your guns in a dry environment, it will look good in 100 years time. I would not say the same of Cerakote. Of course, one can't rust blue stainless, so one ends up with Cerakote or DLC as the only options.

For those with steel barrels, you can get far more beauty out of a good rust blue or hot blue than any Cerakote job. If you are worried about rust, then there is a trick to stop anything rusting: just wipe it over with a clean rag dipped in a strong solution of caustic soda (i.e. caustic soda and water). The water will dry off, leaving sodium hydroxide as a very thin film. To have rust form you need either humidity + acidic conditions, or chlorine, so by making the surface alkaline one stops rust dead. If you put oil on any parts, then avoid caustic on those parts, as it will turn the oil into soap.

All oil and grease does is keep the humidity away from the steel. Putting a dehumidifier into your gun room, reduces humidity (if you remember to empty it daily), but when you take it hunting the gun gets soaked. Using caustic means that even when soaked, it does not rust.

By the way, never allow acids into your gun room, or anyone with bleach: even stainless steel guns are fitted with parts made from carbon steel.
People often forget that Stainless comes in grades . Some are very corrosion resistant indeed ( often these are the none magnetic versions ) others are often not a great deal away from some std none stainless
I had a blued rifle during the first Covid lock down adding a stainless barrel , its been worked hard in the field and the only so called damage is the thread at the muzzle and a surface finish change where the rear bush sits
Parkerising absolutely is better though ! I had a rifle done over 20-25 years ago and its my most used rifle over that time - its perfect ! Its had a hard working life , which can be found on the stock but not the finish
Perhaps there have been too many " Jonney comes lately " ceracoaters about ?
 
People often forget that Stainless comes in grades . Some are very corrosion resistant indeed ( often these are the none magnetic versions ) others are often not a great deal away from some std none stainless
I had a blued rifle during the first Covid lock down adding a stainless barrel , its been worked hard in the field and the only so called damage is the thread at the muzzle and a surface finish change where the rear bush sits
Parkerising absolutely is better though ! I had a rifle done over 20-25 years ago and its my most used rifle over that time - its perfect ! Its had a hard working life , which can be found on the stock but not the finish
Perhaps there have been too many " Jonney comes lately " ceracoaters about ?
Yes, I agree, I would not dream of sending anything to many of the shops that offer Cerakote, tons of amateurs cutting corners - in the early days, I tried a few, lots of expense and their deviations from the Cerakote factory process meant the coating flaked off.

Parkerising is simply iron phosphating, which is a good finish, much cheaper to put on than a real layered blue, and for mass production it works well. Parkerising does not work on stainless steels though, and even on a carbon steel phosphating is not a touch on DLC.

On the stainless steels, yes, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of different stainless steels, but you would be really toiling to find ones that compete with Whitworth fluid pressed steel of the 1880s for tensile strength. Stainless steels generally have much lower tensile strength, so more weight is needed for the same job.

High tensile strength stainless steels that never rust, even if immersed in salt water for decades, such as SS904L, or the Super Duplex stainless steels, are much more difficult to machine than steel of comparable strength because the nickel content causes them to work harden too fast as one machines it. This requires more rigid tooling, and long items such as barrels, would be hard to make without chatter. As a result, everything is a compromise in stainless steel actions and barrels, using 416 Stainless mostly.
 
Do you DLC in house Alex
We send the items out for DLC. Same for electro-platings, e.g nickel.

We do parkerising, blues and Cerakote in house, dip coating using PE in a fluidised bed, sometimes strip nickel in-house too, and anodise titanium in house (we use a lot of Ti, again many hundreds of parts a month, but Ti anodising is very quick and easy, hardly any prep needed). Aluminium cryo-anodising is done out of house.

The cost of platings can be very high. To get a basic corrosion resistance from nickel onto aluminium, it takes a 40 micron coating, which costs us around £1000 per square metre of surface. We tried flame deposition, but results can be a bit too inconsistent for us. We have had UK specialist nickel plating companies completely screw up electroless and electro-nickel coating, causing us total recalls, and never had any compensation. It is hard to do an inspection on a part coming back nickel plated, other than looking at the surface and measuring the thickness. For Cerakote, a quick QA inspection is to apply tape to it, and rip it off fast, if any Cerakote comes off, reject the whole batch.

Unfortunately DLC is even more expensive than nickel - not sure on the metre cost but roughly double. A bronze valve body weighing 200 grams costs £6 to drop forge including materials and £3 to machine (3 threads, external profile to remove the drop forging flash, internal profile and seat), then £7 to DLC coat. A SS904L hose crimp fitting of about a square inch in area costs £2 to DLC coat. DLC would work well for rifle actions and barrels, other than the hassle of sending it out and the one off QA costs DLC involves. Sending rifle barrels and actions anywhere involves a lot of paperwork, as you know, unless the receiver is a RFD or one does it in person.

Cerakote is very much cheaper but not hard wearing enough to use on any surface where something slides against it, even a sliding O-ring using gloss E series is not going to last long. For stainless steels, it is a choice between natural, Cerakote and DLC finishes, though PVD can put down lots of fancy colours if you are into that sort of thing.
 
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Ah I see

Was wondering about DLC coating an action and bolt but I guess the coating place do not have certification to do such work
 
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Yes, I agree, I would not dream of sending anything to many of the shops that offer Cerakote, tons of amateurs cutting corners - in the early days, I tried a few, lots of expense and their deviations from the Cerakote factory process meant the coating flaked off.

Parkerising is simply iron phosphating, which is a good finish, much cheaper to put on than a real layered blue, and for mass production it works well. Parkerising does not work on stainless steels though, and even on a carbon steel phosphating is not a touch on DLC.

On the stainless steels, yes, there are hundreds, if not thousands, of different stainless steels, but you would be really toiling to find ones that compete with Whitworth fluid pressed steel of the 1880s for tensile strength. Stainless steels generally have much lower tensile strength, so more weight is needed for the same job.

High tensile strength stainless steels that never rust, even if immersed in salt water for decades, such as SS904L, or the Super Duplex stainless steels, are much more difficult to machine than steel of comparable strength because the nickel content causes them to work harden too fast as one machines it. This requires more rigid tooling, and long items such as barrels, would be hard to make without chatter. As a result, everything is a compromise in stainless steel actions and barrels, using 416 Stainless mostly.
Parkerising as a name seems to be a bit mixed up now , I tell you the late Steve Pope did it for me when he was taking some room at Webley and its been fantastic . Man has made many thousands of different steels and a lot of them are the same as each others just named different . On another account most raw steels today are lower quality than those made in the past in many areas as we use a higher amount of unknown multiple times re-cycled unknown in the mix . Of course then we have China now and its endemic low integrity in trade. We have to build some more smelting / rolling plants and Global warming is as it says Global so we aint being more environmentally shipping it in from the other side of the world !
 
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Ah I see

Was wondering about DLC coating an action and bolt but I guess the coating place do not have certification to do such work
Coating an action is easy, and if you strip it down enough, then they should be able to do it.
Have a word with your FEO, just to make sure. I attach a pic of action I am about to get DLC'd, while we Cerakote the barrel and bolt lugs here. The bolt is something I will simply jewel and leave shiny. You don't need to recertify anything or reproof it as DLC is so thin it does not cover up the marks. Problem you hint of is a full barrel needs the coater to have an RFD or a FAC with that firearm on it, but part of an action should be OK: again speak with your FEO.

On the suggestions to build up industry:
On another account most raw steels today are lower quality than those made in the past in many areas as we use a higher amount of unknown multiple times re-cycled unknown in the mix . Of course then we have China now and its endemic low integrity in trade. We have to build some more smelting / rolling plants and Global warming is as it says Global so we aint being more environmentally shipping it in from the other side of the world !
Rather off topic, but you echo a common viewpoint, that is detached from reality, so if you pardon the rant:
The reality is the British govt is dead opposed to industry, and has been for decades. Most people see the facts but do not do the sums of 2+2 and recognise the consequences. Look at the facts:
1. Electricity is £0.46 a kw/hr (yes, companies pay more than residentials), due to net zero and the crazy marginal pricing policy we have, compared to less than £0.02 in China, £0.01 in Nigeria or Argentina. Mexico is £0.07 kw/hr compared to £0.13 in the USA. Do you know how much power smelting takes, or simply heating an industrial building?
2. On top of that we are charged for the rain, yes, rain on grass, is charged at around £10k a year by the mafia like enterprises that Scottish Water subcontract consumer supply to. This is on top of sky high business rates.
3. Then UK min wages have doubled as increasing them raises tax, so now unskilled labourers are getting almost as much as skilled toolmakers, which is double the wages elsewhere. The recent Employers NI rise of 50% is just the straw that breaks the camel's back. Universal credit means people get paid more than that to stay at home, which as a result of the Universal Credit explosion, means taxes are so high, that take home pay is an insult to the years of dedication it takes a technician to learn his trade.
4. Mega immigration is destroying the prospect for pay rises, as taxes have to stay high to support them, for decades. You cannot increase the price of your goods to cover these rises, as competitors overseas will take your market if you try it.
5. On top of that is HSE and others who do random inspections, as their specialist used to work for a direct competitor and from their action still does. HSE can write you as many letters as they like, even if you do nothing wrong, and you have to pay them £460 per letter, no appeal process whatsoever, if their man works for a competitor, he can flood you with letters reminding you of the things you already know and told them when they came. They can visit as often as they like, which shuts down production for the day as the managers have to go around with them, explaining that garnet or aluminium oxide is not a toxic chemical, or why there should not be a fume extractor where there is TIG welding of stainless underway - you could not make it up.
6. Making things involves a pile of paperwork: US is even worse than the UK for this, so John Deere emigrating their business is no surprise.
7. Cost of refuse is sky high, even for things that are easily recycled.
8. Rip off Britain: Send in a VAT form a day late, or a Corporation tax form an hour late, the fine is thousands of pounds, so your accountant being sick for a day can really add up. Edinburgh council charge £60 for infringing the LEZ, rising to almost £500 if you do it a few days in a row before the fine letters arrive and you realise where the zone is - so just don't buy anything from any company in an LEZ, while skirting around it takes double the journey time. However, shoplift £10,000 of goods and the fine is just £100, or plough up crops with an electric motorbike and get only a telling off.
9. Despite the words, UK govt procurement despise medium sized companies. We have not sold anything in the UK, other than some trials which went perfectly but no procurement. Procurement is stuffed with inefficiency here. We export all over the world, everywhere except sanctioned countries, but have not sold a bean to the USA or UK. We have never had a grant, we have done a lot of genuine R&D, even our R&D corporation tax reduction claims are kicked about. This is unthinkable in Japan for example, where the govt does buy local where it can.

Forget the ideas about sorting out the UK, it is all too far gone. Just do what one does, then sell up one's house to emigrate somewhere peaceful to retire. House prices are absurd due to interest rates being too low, and the huge immigrant influx where many often share a house, but it does have the advantage of funding you when you retire.

On the matter of steel, Chinese companies can and do produce some excellent steels. India also. I have not witnessed the "low integrity in trade you mention", unless the supplier has been from the UK. You get a full analysis of the steel when you buy it anyway. The problem is Britain does not make steel, and requires now, that you have traceability back to the rock to prove the rock does not come from Russia - this costs a week of work per import, which can end up in demurrage charges that could fund putting man on the moon.

When you add it all up it is far easier to move manufacturing overseas, then come back to Scotland and go deer stalking, ignore all the idiots running the country and just appreciate a beautiful day on the hills.
 

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What would an action and bolt cost to DLC
You use an expensive word, "an", meaning one.
IF it is in the factory where we do it, IF you are doing batches of 200, about £5 for the bolt, and £15 for the action including masking.
One-offs cost as much as doing 50 for DLC.
One-offs for Cerakote are not cheap either, but a lot less than DLC.

Many firms offer DLC in the UK: some of them may be much cheaper for one offs than I quote above.

You would not send them the bolt, just the tube, lugs and handle, so no RFD needed. For the action, or rather the receiver housing, you would not include the trigger, bolt release or other things that make it functional as an action, so again no RFD needed. Unfortunately once a barrel is chambered and threaded you need a pile of paperwork, perhaps a temporary licence for the coating company could be obtained, but easier to go to Ed at Edinburgh Rifles and use his man to Cerakote the barrel.
 
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Coating an action is easy, and if you strip it down enough, then they should be able to do it.
Have a word with your FEO, just to make sure. I attach a pic of action I am about to get DLC'd, while we Cerakote the barrel and bolt lugs here. The bolt is something I will simply jewel and leave shiny. You don't need to recertify anything or reproof it as DLC is so thin it does not cover up the marks. Problem you hint of is a full barrel needs the coater to have an RFD or a FAC with that firearm on it, but part of an action should be OK: again speak with your FEO.

On the suggestions to build up industry:

Rather off topic, but you echo a common viewpoint, that is detached from reality, so if you pardon the rant:
The reality is the British govt is dead opposed to industry, and has been for decades. Most people see the facts but do not do the sums of 2+2 and recognise the consequences. Look at the facts:
1. Electricity is £0.46 a kw/hr (yes, companies pay more than residentials), due to net zero and the crazy marginal pricing policy we have, compared to less than £0.02 in China, £0.01 in Nigeria or Argentina. Mexico is £0.07 kw/hr compared to £0.13 in the USA. Do you know how much power smelting takes, or simply heating an industrial building?
2. On top of that we are charged for the rain, yes, rain on grass, is charged at around £10k a year by the mafia like enterprises that Scottish Water subcontract consumer supply to. This is on top of sky high business rates.
3. Then UK min wages have doubled as increasing them raises tax, so now unskilled labourers are getting almost as much as skilled toolmakers, which is double the wages elsewhere. The recent Employers NI rise of 50% is just the straw that breaks the camel's back. Universal credit means people get paid more than that to stay at home, which as a result of the Universal Credit explosion, means taxes are so high, that take home pay is an insult to the years of dedication it takes a technician to learn his trade.
4. Mega immigration is destroying the prospect for pay rises, as taxes have to stay high to support them, for decades. You cannot increase the price of your goods to cover these rises, as competitors overseas will take your market if you try it.
5. On top of that is HSE and others who do random inspections, as their specialist used to work for a direct competitor and from their action still does. HSE can write you as many letters as they like, even if you do nothing wrong, and you have to pay them £460 per letter, no appeal process whatsoever, if their man works for a competitor, he can flood you with letters reminding you of the things you already know and told them when they came. They can visit as often as they like, which shuts down production for the day as the managers have to go around with them, explaining that garnet or aluminium oxide is not a toxic chemical, or why there should not be a fume extractor where there is TIG welding of stainless underway - you could not make it up.
6. Making things involves a pile of paperwork: US is even worse than the UK for this, so John Deere emigrating their business is no surprise.
7. Cost of refuse is sky high, even for things that are easily recycled.
8. Rip off Britain: Send in a VAT form a day late, or a Corporation tax form an hour late, the fine is thousands of pounds, so your accountant being sick for a day can really add up. Edinburgh council charge £60 for infringing the LEZ, rising to almost £500 if you do it a few days in a row before the fine letters arrive and you realise where the zone is - so just don't buy anything from any company in an LEZ, while skirting around it takes double the journey time. However, shoplift £10,000 of goods and the fine is just £100, or plough up crops with an electric motorbike and get only a telling off.
9. Despite the words, UK govt procurement despise medium sized companies. We have not sold anything in the UK, other than some trials which went perfectly but no procurement. Procurement is stuffed with inefficiency here. We export all over the world, everywhere except sanctioned countries, but have not sold a bean to the USA or UK. We have never had a grant, we have done a lot of genuine R&D, even our R&D corporation tax reduction claims are kicked about. This is unthinkable in Japan for example, where the govt does buy local where it can.

Forget the ideas about sorting out the UK, it is all too far gone. Just do what one does, then sell up one's house to emigrate somewhere peaceful to retire. House prices are absurd due to interest rates being too low, and the huge immigrant influx where many often share a house, but it does have the advantage of funding you when you retire.

On the matter of steel, Chinese companies can and do produce some excellent steels. India also. I have not witnessed the "low integrity in trade you mention", unless the supplier has been from the UK. You get a full analysis of the steel when you buy it anyway. The problem is Britain does not make steel, and requires now, that you have traceability back to the rock to prove the rock does not come from Russia - this costs a week of work per import, which can end up in demurrage charges that could fund putting man on the moon.

When you add it all up it is far easier to move manufacturing overseas, then come back to Scotland and go deer stalking, ignore all the idiots running the country and just appreciate a beautiful day on the hills.
lot i agree with there ! Facts are when i started in the Engineering trade the Health and safety was terrible , we still had Asbestos used to cover broken castings to raise the temperature with a pepper pot burner before welding / brazing i saw one guy loose his leg when a large delivery of steel sheets ( that where propped up lean to fashion slipped ) , a young lad chopped his finer off clean under a fly press tool . All them those both was in just say my the first year. That was just my first year or a bit more !
The issue presently is we are only using China etc to produce everything from steel to digital NV Scopes and they have even lower standards on safety and pollution. We all reap the results all over the planet in terms of this pollution Though some Nations are far worse its still around the same big golf ball
So It really is time we made more steel etc here for our own use but do it in the safest way .
Steel today is very poor I was making a big set of fancy railings a few years back when i still traded in such things . Straight mild steel scrolls that hardened pretty much fully hardened after I sped the cooling up with a quench - this should not happen !
I will put good money down that our current Government wont get re-elected ( unless they bring in the voters from other nations with what amounts to bribery , with taxpayers money )
I don't get "to far gone" because the current government would struggle to get all the paperwork done , let alone build more homes for them
 
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