Sako TRG 22 A1

[MarinePMI]

I’ve had a T3 TAC A1 and it was great, I also have a TRG 22 (Green/phosphate) which is also great. I’m intending to do a bit of PRE after watching Sundays comp at Bisley and from what I can see either would be excellent, maybe not as competitive or cool as the AI offerings but I suspect 308 will be a load cheaper than 6XC of 6x47 etc. plus I don’t expect to win but just have some fun and hopefully be in the top 50%

As Ronin mentioned, recoil will be your biggest problem with the 308. Not that it's too much, or causes flinching/slapping the trigger, but rather moving the scope off target and not being able to spot your own splash on/off the target. Good fundamentals (proper position for recoil management) will help, but the additional recoil will still be a detractor to some degree. Also, any targets past 500yds, and the wind drift will begin to become a challenge. Depending on target size, it could be enough to be the difference between a first round hit, or a close miss.

Many deride the 6.5 Creedmoor, but that is the real advantage of it over the venerable 308; wind drift. Most shots are missed on wind calls, not elevation. In this day and age, elevation is an expected known (save shooting in some high angle engagements, which Bisley doesn't have), but wind calls will absolutely kill a shooter's scores, especially as ranges increase, and the .308 rapidly loses velocity. After about 800yds, the 6.5CM absolutely eats the .308's lunch when it comes to wind calls. Especially when you consider that most 6.5CM rifles (and ammo) are .5-.6mil guns, which makes making wind calls on the fly, at multiple ranges, much simpler. The 6.5CM really shines in that 600-800yd range and only gets really parabolic as you get past 850yds, where the drops become almost exponential (and wind drift really begins to increase rapidly).

As to being cheaper, I hate to break it to you, but that is not usually the case. The other reason (aside from negligible recoil) people shoot 6mm's is that the bullets are much cheaper when compared to the same high end .30 caliber bullets. The real downside to the 6mm is not being able to clearly see target impact, and many times (especially in wet weather) being able to see splash; either on the target, or in the surrounding backstop. The ground just soaks them up, leaving a shooter wondering where their shot went. And as we know from experience, not all spotters/RO's/Squad Mom's have high end glass to see the little 6mm bullets splash a target at ranges past 700yds. It's really difficult, and more so in inclement weather. It's a very real handicap of the 6mm rounds being used for comps.

All this being said, there is one (small) advantage to the .308. Defilade shots. Because of the increased drop, being able to score a defilade shot/hit (target is mostly obscured, with only maybe the top 2" exposed above a berm out past 600-700yds) is much easier with a .308. We have one CoF that does exactly this, and for that reason (getting shooters to understand the ballistic arc of a bullet, and using it to their advantage to mask their position), where a target at roughly 900yds is obscured (mostly) by the top of a tree. They can't clearly see the target, but they can see enough to make a precise aiming point in the tree. The .308 guys just consistently pound that target. The 6.5 CM (and especially the 6mm guys) struggle, since their "window" of their bullet path is just that much smaller, since the ballistic arc is flatter. We also use this CoF to level the playing field against the guys gaming the match by using flat, high speed 6mm cartridges. We also have a reverse defilade that does the opposite (target appears visually as unobstructed, but there is a large tree limb bracketing the target above in the view, that actually ballistically obscures the target). Hence why we put in the rules "any impact on target counts", as shooters begin to realize they can bounce a round into the target (shoot low, in front of the target) to get an impact/hit.

At any rate, I suppose I'm rambling (and this is probably more than you wanted to know), but just wanted to comment/add to Ronin's response.

 

[long_range_rob]

You will be hampered with recoil management using a 308 - but you will enjoy this type of shooting

It’s addictive

Pah! I laugh at.308 recoil!

I did say it was just for fun

 

[Ronin]

Pah! I laugh at.308 recoil!

I did say it was just for fun

Ja -recoil is manageable with 308 in light system for hunting but with competition environment where you may (do) need to spot hit (or miss) correct and reload / re engage ten times in the space of two minutes - it may become an issue that may be detrimental to your enjoyment of the day

Just be aware of that

 

[MarinePMI]

Ja -recoil is manageable with 308 in light system for hunting but with competition environment where you may (do) need to spot hit (or miss) correct and reload / re engage ten times in the space of two minutes - it may become an issue that may be detrimental to your enjoyment of the day

Just be aware of that

And 10 shots in 2 mins can be very generous, compared to some matches where it is 12 in 1:45. As the skill level and gear/TTPs in the community grows, the times decrease....

 

[User00040]

And 10 shots in 2 mins can be very generous, compared to some matches where it is 12 in 1:45. As the skill level and gear/TTPs in the community grows, the times decrease....

Are gas guns getting more popular with cartridges like the 6ARC coming along to level the playing field a bit more in their favour?

 

[MarinePMI]

Are gas guns getting more popular with cartridges like the 6ARC coming along to level the playing field a bit more in their favour?

No, not really. It would seem that a semi-auto would give an advantage, but it doesn't really in most cases. There are some stages/circumstances where it does, but never enough in a match to warrant shooting one, most of the time.

This is largely because most people aren't very adept at driving a semi-auto correctly (which requires a huge emphasis on follow through as the all the parts are moving, and good fundamentals for recoil management). Bolt guns allow a lot more sloppiness (unless shooting suppressed) than a semi-auto, for precision work. We see some show up with AR's/LR's, but they tend to be the exception unless it's a match where it is required (Mammoth Sniper Challenge for example, where it is teams of two shooters each; one with a bolt gun, one with a semi-auto). Many go down the route of building up a semi-auto, only to later realize that "it's not as accurate as a bolt gun" (when in reality, most times it's the shooter, not the rifle). Most end up migrating back to a bolt gun (bad habits are incredibly hard to unlearn).

Then add in the unconventional shooting positions required in PRS/PRE shooting, and well, you know, it amplifies the imperfections in a shooters fundamentals...a lot. And as such, you generally see most running bolt guns, and then just focusing on becoming more efficient with running them ("economy of motion" so-to-speak).

A good analogy/comparison, is shotguns. SxS or O/U versus semi-autos. Both work, but it is incredibly easier (and fast) to shoot a O/U for two shots, than a semi-auto, where you have to wait for the gun to cycle. Granted the newer shotguns function stupidly fast, but the analogy is still a good one in my mind, if you've ever shot some of the older semi-auto shotguns. Especially if coming from shooting an O/U (where it seems like you're waiting an eternity for the semi-auto gun to cycle as you swing onto the next clay).

JMHO and experience in my small part of the world...

 

[Ronin]

JMHO and experience in my small part of the world...

Which is huge and respected

 

[MarinePMI]

Which is huge and respected

Thank you Ronin, I appreciate the compliment. But TBH, there are a lot better shooters out there than me, with a lot more experience than I.

<shrug> I just muddle along, and try and learn something new as we all spin around the sun. And then try to pass it along, so others don't have to learn the hard way...

 

[SCB]

Hi
interested in the science of this. How does the moderator make it worse? Time for the gasses to come out maybe?
thanks
SCB

Bolt guns allow a lot more sloppiness (unless shooting suppressed)

 

[MarinePMI]

Hi
interested in the science of this. How does the moderator make it worse? Time for the gasses to come out maybe?
thanks
SCB

Moderators slow down the recoil impulse. So, much like driving a semi-auto, follow through is much more critical when shooting precision rifle. I see it all the time, when people shoot suppressed for the first time (suppressors are rare in my current home town/state). They start shaking their heads saying "This thing just doesn't shoot as well with the suppressor. It must be altering the barrel harmonics." When I suggest they pay closer attention to follow through, and to drive it like an AR, they generally come back smiling after a stage CoF, saying "Damn! You were right! This rifle is right back to shooting as well as when unsuppressed!". <chuckle> I just smile and give a wink and thumbs up.

When someone encounters some unexpected, unexplained change....go back to the fundamentals.

 

[SCB]

Moderators slow down the recoil impulse. So, much like driving a semi-auto, follow through is much more critical when shooting precision rifle. I see it all the time, when people shoot suppressed for the first time (suppressors are rare in my current home town/state). They start shaking their heads saying "This thing just doesn't shoot as well with the suppressor. It must be altering the barrel harmonics." When I suggest they pay closer attention to follow through, and to drive it like an AR, they generally come back smiling after a stage CoF, saying "Damn! You were right! This rifle is right back to shooting as well as when unsuppressed!". <chuckle> I just smile and give a wink and thumbs up.

When someone encounters some unexpected, unexplained change....go back to the fundamentals.

Got it. So whilst moderators reduce recoil, by slowing the impulse they highlight fundamentals in their own way. Many thanks
SCB

 

[Andy RV]

I may be mistaken but the change in recoil impulse on a bolt action would only occur when the bullet has left the barrel and the muzzle blast is released into the moderator, as the bullet is in free flight, albeit in a very turbulent atmosphere, the impulse would have a negligible effect on the bullet and thus it’s route to the target?

I can’t say I’ve ever noticed my groups suffering after adding a moderator, if anything it makes it easier.

 

[MarinePMI]

I may be mistaken but the change in recoil impulse on a bolt action would only occur when the bullet has left the barrel and the muzzle blast is released into the moderator, as the bullet is in free flight, albeit in a very turbulent atmosphere, the impulse would have a negligible effect on the bullet and thus it’s route to the target?

I can’t say I’ve ever noticed my groups suffering after adding a moderator, if anything it makes it easier.

Where does the atmosphere in the barrel (ahead of the bullet) and suppressor go, when the bullet is fired?

This is purely speculation on my part, but this is why all modern suppressors have expansion chambers. As the bullet moves forward, it pushes that atmosphere ahead of the bullet out of the barrel. And so, if there is no expansion chamber a couple things happen:

1. Pressure begins to build immediately.

2. And due to the immediate increase in pressure, while the bullet is still traveling down the barrel, the recoil impulse changes, altering how the barrel climbs from recoil.

With an expansion chamber, there is a delay in the climb in pressure, allowing the rifle to recoil more normally as it would, without a suppressor attached. Now whether they did that specifically to reduce the change in recoil impulse while the bullet was still traveling down the barrel, or because it smoothed out the pressure curve in the suppressor (thereby allowing the suppressor to be made to withstand lower, but longer duration of a specific pressure), is up for debate. I suspect it was done (adding an expansion chamber) anecdotally, because they found that the suppressors just shot better (and quieter) with one.

Again, it's just a theory of mine, having been actively watching the suppressor design renaissance in the US about 15 years ago. That was the heyday of a lot of suppressor technology breakthroughs, as hydrodynamic models were improved (happenstance really) to test out designs and theory. That was when the K baffle, expansion chamber and monolithic stack designs arose, and we left behind the old C and M baffle designs. Silencertalk.com was literally a think tank of ideas and experimentation back then, before a couple of the bigger manufacturers began stealing intellectual property (it was legal, but certainly not what I would call moral), and people quit sharing their thoughts and designs so openly.

 

[Andy RV]

Into the moderator of course, however we’re talking about a relatively small volume of gas in a vented environment, as moderator bore diameter is nominally the same as the bore diameter the gas would escape from the system at the same rate. Yes there may be some force applied to the baffle arrangement however without sole calcs, and most probably CFD modelling I’m not entirely convinced of its affect on the firing cycle.