Scavenging lab, recall goes out the window

[wildfowler.250]

Right folks , I want to pick some brains on here. Invariably with dogs, everyone has a different approach to things.

I’ve a 2 year old lab who on the whole, is okay. Still very raw for what I want as an end result. He’s been hard work. Sit and wait is unbelievably good. His heel work is okay off lead,(did 2 miles on the farm track and no flaws today despite all the sheep muck).


But he’s a blooming nightmare for scavenging and or rolling in stuff.


The problem I have is, when he decides to ignore me to say, bolt off and eat seaweed. He then knows he’s in trouble.
So at this point he has no interest in coming back, he just gets himself more worked up. Nose goes to the ground and he just zig zags the beach looking for stuff.


Now I don’t tell him off for coming back. I’ve made this mistake in the past. But I just can’t get his attention back / eye contact once he’s zoned out. If he will sit, usually you’re good but half the time he’s as likely to go zoomies again.


After about 5 - 10 minutes, he came back in.


Appreciate it’s all essentially recall. I’m many ways, his recall is decent until he has these pent up moments where he goes daft.

Sometimes he’s the same between retrieves. Did a water retrieve today, delivered to hand. Then overly excited and couldn’t come back into heel from 5 metres away for a good 2 minutes for absolutely fixated on eating grass.


It’s like he just doesn’t have the attention span. None of my previous dogs have ever been this challenging.


How do I get around these episodes where I need to correct him but 1 - you won’t catch him,(and probably shouldn’t chase him) and 2 - under controlled situations he’s actually okay. Just bad in the field so to speak.

 

[VSS]

My way is that when the dog does eventually respond and come back I praise him up and make a big fuss, but then immediately let him scamper off again. Repeat several times before finally clipping a lead on and walking away from the "excitement zone" with dog under control.
If you don't do this, ie, if you clip the lead on the first time he comes to recall, he'll learn to associate recall with the end of his fun, and begin to view it as a negative thing / punishment, rather than something positive.

After a short while of my suggested regime they usually come good and can be recalled and brought under control at any time, at the first attempt.

(caveat: my experience is primarily with sheepdogs, not gundogs).

 

[DavyG]

I had one like that. If he doesn’t stop, run after him, catch & chastise. Drag him back to where he was “asked” to stop.
I got quite fit doing this, but got there in the end.
DG

 

[scotch_egg]

All I can add is I’m glad it’s not just my nearly 2 year old lab that can be a complete dick.

The big one for me is making myself his main focus once he has been distracted. I have found a shock collar incredibly valuable for regaining his attention when he does selectively deaf.

 

[NullMac]

He is being a teenager. Do NOT make repetitive commands that he just ignores, that is just teaching him to be disobedient.

Roar at him, run over, get him upside down on his back, lean over him and give him a monster bollocking. Make him sit on that spot for 2-3 minutes while you walk away about 50m or more. If he moves, repeat.

At the moment he thinks he is the boss and you are his bitch.

 

[GWP]

Run the other way calling he may think he is missing something

 

[VSS]

I had one like that. If he doesn’t stop, run after him, catch & chastise. Drag him back to where he was “asked” to stop.
I got quite fit doing this, but got there in the end.
DG

I wouldn't recommend this ^^^
The dog can run faster than you can, so why run after him to catch him? Totally pointless. And if you chastise after catching then you'll just make him even harder to catch in future. It's counterproductive to chastise after the event, and even more so if you've just caught him.
If any dog (regardless of breed or purpose) is difficult to recall or catch, then the only thing it should get when it does (eventually) allow itself to be caught is praise. Lots of it.

 

[Bowland blades]

When it comes to Labradors and food ? All bets are off ! Guide dogs are only allowed one feed type , no snacks , treats etc they must ignore everything else than that brand in their bowl - Obvious reasons why the blind person would likely starve to death ! Or divert 90 degrees to get at some discarded food .
As far as i got with any of my labs is they will not snatch food out their bowl till i tell them, i have still had my good disappear from my hand before it reached my mouth ( a scotch egg can definitely be swallowed whole ) I know that !

 

[Dunwaters]

As above, teenage syndrome. Theres no point shouting/whistling after the first once or twice so do something else.
A ping or two from a collar would do it, but theres lots that won’t agree.
However, he’s deliberately ignoring you. You can’t let that go.

 

[Bowland blades]

I wouldn't recommend this ^^^
The dog can run faster than you can, so why run after him to catch him? Totally pointless. And if you chastise after catching then you'll just make him even harder to catch in future. It's counterproductive to chastise after the event, and even more so if you've just caught him.
If any dog (regardless of breed or purpose) is difficult to recall or catch, then the only thing it should get when it does (eventually) allow itself to be caught is praise. Lots of it.

Last one i chased down dammed near gave me a hart attack , stuff that running nonsense against a fit 4 legged beast. I caught it in the end but that was only because it wanted to be i guess

 

[Boosh]

Yep, if you let it go, you are no nearer.
Dog needs to know it is being out of order.
Use your voice heavy at this point.
When you get him back you can let it go which solves nothing or sort it.
You may have to be liberal going forward from this point in how heavy you use your voice.
Have tamed scent driven terriers.
You either give up control on the dog and live with it, or get tough.
It's a fine line though, they are all different.
If the tail starts dropping and tucking you are going too far.

 

[DavyG]

I wouldn't recommend this ^^^
The dog can run faster than you can, so why run after him to catch him? Totally pointless. And if you chastise after catching then you'll just make him even harder to catch in future. It's counterproductive to chastise after the event, and even more so if you've just caught him.
If any dog (regardless of breed or purpose) is difficult to recall or catch, then the only thing it should get when it does (eventually) allow itself to be caught is praise. Lots of it.

And I wouldn’t recommend that ^^^
Giving the dog praise when he decides to eventually come back is like saying to him, “you do what you want my boy…come back when you feel like it”.
What works for me might not work for you.
DG

 

[VSS]

And I wouldn’t recommend that ^^^
Giving the dog praise when he decides to eventually come back is like saying to him, “you do what you want my boy…come back when you feel like it”.
What works for me might not work for you.
DG

And punishing him when you catch him is like saying "don't let me catch you again".

Punishment only works if you can dish it out when the dog is actually doing something wrong. So to punish it when it finally allows itself to be caught - when it's actually done something right - would be a dumb thing to do.

 

[Boosh]

Hey VSS, I would like to say a dog knows it is still in the bad books for long after the owner first makes a stand, unless you have given in and crumbled to get it back to heel.
I'd say 20 minutes from first 'losing it' the dog still knows it's shakey ground with time to address the problem.
Might be lost that day, but lessons can be learned going forward.
Living with faults is not a major problem though, humans are adaptable if we can let our ego's slip.

 

[VSS]

Hey VSS, I would like to say a dog knows it is still in the bad books for long after the owner first makes a stand, unless you have given in and crumbled to get it back to heel.
I'd say 20 minutes from first 'losing it' the dog still knows it's shakey ground with time to address the problem.
Might be lost that day, but lessons can be learned going forward.
Living with faults is not a major problem though, humans are adaptable if we can let our ego's slip.

Yes, that is true, but even so, giving a dog a bollocking just after he has - eventually - done exactly what you've been trying to get him to do, is never going to work.
The key thing in training any animal - not just dogs - is to anticipate their actions so as to always be a step ahead of their thought process. This enables you to forestall wrongdoing, and to structure positive outcomes.

 

[DavyG]

And punishing him when you catch him is like saying "don't let me catch you again".

Punishment only works if you can dish it out when the dog is actually doing something wrong. So to punish it when it finally allows itself to be caught - when it's actually done something right - would be a dumb thing to do.

If the dog doesn’t stop immediately on the whistle, catch him, chastise him. Give him the “stop” again. Walk off making him stay put. Call him to you, give him praise.
No point in letting him come back when he feels like it and then praising him for that.
My method works for me.
Can we agree to disagree?
DG

 

[viking90]

I found this to be a respect thing, granted I have no experience of training gun dog breeds, but it's that age where its hard work. When I first got my malinois rescue life was a nightmare for training especially recall. 18 months old, fresh out of doggy prison and no respect for me or anything else. After a massive battle of wills, a few scars and bruises later she finally got the message that I'm in charge and she needs to do as she's told. Working and building a strong bond was a big part of it I reckon as you become a team. 1 or 2 classes my help to get some pointers but I'd say once you've got that idea in his head he can't take the p*ss and you're boss you should find everything else easier. How you go about that with a lab I'm not sure as they aren't always the brightest bulbs in the pack

 

[VSS]

If the dog doesn’t stop immediately on the whistle, catch him, chastise him. Give him the “stop” again. Walk off making him stay put. Call him to you, give him praise.
No point in letting him come back when he feels like it and then praising him for that.
My method works for me.
DG

I agree with what you say, apart from the "catch him, chastise him" bit. Do one or the other, not both, or you'll make him hard to catch in future.
Tone of voice ought to be enough to chastise the dog without catching it in the situation you're describing, but that wasn't the OP's problem. His problem was that the dog wouldn't come back when called, not that it wouldn't sit/stay. Totally different situation to a dog that won't stop on the spot.
In a situation where a dog won't come back, it is clearly counterproductive to punish him when he does. It would be a about the same as telling a dog to sit, and then thrashing him when he sits. It ain't going to achieve the desired outcome.

If you want a dog that'll drop on the spot to the whistle when it's maybe 300 or 400 yards away, then you're only going to achieve that by working with it so it wants to do it, not by forcing the issue through punishment, because at that sort of distance there's fcuk all you can do about it if things go wrong, and the dog knows it!
Likewise, if you tell a dog to "stay there" and expect it to still be there tomorrow, it's got to be doing it because you've taught it that it's a good thing to do, not forced it, because if you're miles away doing something else there's fcuk all other than trust that makes that dog stay put. Punishment won't create trust.

 

[B&W FOX]

That's the problem of naming a lab Fenton

 

[Boosh]

Hey VSS, I understand what you are saying about sorting a dog when it comes back to you.
What I am saying is a dog knows its in line for sorting as soon as the vocal is ignored even if this is several/10 minutes later.
That vocal point is the starting point, if if carries on then it will be addressed, sometimes swiftly, sometimes a bit further down.
Only negative comes if the vocal is ignored.