Shooting Muntjac or CWD with .22 centerfire held in N.Ire but travelling to mainland

[caorach]

On a slightly different note, I cannot use expanding ammunition as a target round. Would you suggest that under your FAC you could use it as such?

To my knowledge the police within NI make no distinction at all, ever, between expanding and non-expanding, they don't treat unloaded expanding missiles as ammo either, so from their point of view there is no issue. However, as you will know, various other organisations such as those running the ranges have opinions on this matter, probably mostly based upon the situation in other areas of the UK, and so they may not allow expanding for target shooting. However, as has been stated it would be difficult to make a distinction between zeroing and target shooting and it might even be reasonable to zero on a target and then decide that it was a good group and enter it in a competition? I don't really know as I've never done it.

As expanding missles are not counted, nor signed on certificates, and don't count towards a holding we don't have a problem with that and the police here give a standard holding of 1,000 rounds though our certificates don't have different values for "hold" and "buy" so I can hold 1,000 and if necessary could buy 1,000. Again I've never had any problems with this slight difference when buying ammo in Scotland, though I've never needed to buy 1,000 rounds but it would be nice to have that much stalking

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

I wanted to stay away from this one.

I do not require any condition to move my rifles within the UK, that is a load of ********. The NI FAC is a valid UK FAC just like any FAC issued by any other UK police force. However, the opposite does not apply - ie you can't just turn up in NI with a firearm and an GB FAC, you need a visitors permit.

We do have a situation here that if you wanted a big game calibre, say a 375H&H, you would be licensed for posession of the rifle and ammo, but coould only transit it out of the country for use abroad, the condition will specifically state "not for use in NI".

I have travelled back and forward to the England and Scotland both by air and ferry literally dozens of times with a rifle and "expanding ammo" and there has never ever been an issue over my right to possess this ammo, or use the rifle in GB.

Reference the specific conditions on a 22/250, the NI FAC will specifiy "sporting purposes and vermin control" for all rifles and shotguns short of deer legal calibres. This should be more than enough to cover shooting muntjac where they exist. It is only on 243 and up that the NI FAC will specify use for deer stalking.

We have no restriction whatsoever on bullets for reloading. As above, the standard position is possession of 1,000 rounds of each round on the FAC. You can walk into a gunshop here off the street and buy expanding bullets no questions asked. I order mine in by post from the States, which the cops are well ware off, with no issues at all. They are only interested that I am not buying "AP" bullets.

 

[caorach]

That is interesting that I don't need the condition to transport Brian, I was assured that I did however it will save some messing about on renewal.

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

Philip, the transport condition is to allow you to own and travel with a firearm you do not have land to shoot over in NI. So basically, you should only have a rifle like that out of the house coming to and from a "UK point of entrance/exit". I had this condition on the 30/06 until I kicked up a stink. I have never been challenged travelling to or from GB with firearms for nearly 20 years. I do not have a travel condition on any of my guns, and I travel 3 or 4 times per year. Travelling through airports etc is getting easier, ferries can be a bit of a pain, Dublin - Holyhead in particular.

 

[caorach]

That's even better Brian as I was about to ask the folks I stalk with in Scotland for some written "evidence" of bookings to keep the travel condition. As you may recall I discussed travelling with you some time back and have been doing it on a regular basis now on both plane and ferry and I haven't had a single problem in what must be nearly 4 years plus Northern police in Inverness seem to know all about the situation with the NI FAC and that it "opens all the doors" in effect.

 

[FURNOTFEATHER]

Ok Everyone-close to a definitive now....

Was contacted by phone from Firearms HQ to say my enquiry had been forwarded to them by my local FEO.

The lady on the phone did seem to know her stuff though I'm not sure if she specifically dealt with firearms in relation to deer stalking. My only negative from this conversation I had with her is that she did seem extremely hurried on the phone.

Firstly-the N. Ireland FAC is recognised and accepted by all mainland police forces.

Secondly-no additional wording (or paperwork) is needed to transport a deer calibre rifle out of NI to Mainland.

However, because some deer calibre rifles are held by FAC holders in NI without any rights to shoot deer here, a FAC can be endorsed with the statement as mentioned on previous replies here (don't want to start searching for it and paste it in) which allows the holder to keep the firearm in NI but use it for stalking on the mainland with the holder of the stalking rights permission.

Expanding ammo-Because Northern Ireland Firearms Licensing do not use the definition expanding ammunition or non-expanding ammunition, the NI FAC allows its holder to poesess or purchase either type. also, because a NI FAC is recognised throughout the mainland, the same NI categories apply (meaning its allows the holder to purchase/poesses both). However, at the holders request, the term expanding ammunition can be added to a NI FAC if the holder believes he may have issues relevant to ammunition whilst on the mainland. From a legal point of view, it is unlikely that any charge would ever be brought by the crown prosecution service on the mainland due to a NI FAC holder being stopped with expanding ammunition but it is possible that a miss informed local bobby might seize your rifle and ammo and then take a good few hours if not days to be proved that he was mistaken for doing so therefore it is recommended that this condition is added to your FAC.

Hope everyone has been as well informed as I have!

Thanks again for your help.

p.s. Forgot to say-I was also told by firearms licensing that they would remove the 6 months probationary/supervision period for a deer calibre rifle for any applicant who held DSC1. They believed that this was formal proof that the applicant had been instructed in the safe use of relevant rifle. I know some have asked on other posts how to get this supervison requirement removed from their FAC early so this might also be an option on the mainland, but you will have to check with firearms licensing within your local constabulary.

 

[matt_hooks]

So that's the advice of the NI and Scottish firearms departments?

Ignore what's written in the firearms act, we all know the NI certificate covers expanding ammunition so you don't need to worry that the English law requires written permission to possess or purchase it.

From a legal point of view, it is unlikely that any charge would ever be brought by the crown prosecution service on the mainland due to a NI FAC holder being stopped with expanding ammunition

Only "unlikely" ?

I guess if you're a gambling man then it might be a thrill to test this out, but if your issuing authority are willing to put the condition on the paper, then there can be no doubt.

 

[caorach]

But the situation is very clear Matt - you need permission to have expanding and all NI certificate holders have this permission. It is as simple as that. I suspect the use of "unlikely" was a casual use of language in a conversation as it would be impossible to charge someone for not having permission when they do in fact have this permission and have a document signed by our chief of police demonstrating this.

You must bear in mind that a lot of people from NI travel back and forth with firearms on a regular basis, I do so myself and without fail find I'm not the only person on the plane or boat with a firearm, so this isn't some vague theory that is untested but rather something that in my experience the Scottish police forces are well aware of and something that happens many times every day at the various ports and airports. There is simply no issue here at all.

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

Philip, why would you listen to a fellow NI stalker who has been doing this for years, or to a guy who has had it from the horse's mouth, when you could listen to one of our resident English obessives??

 

[caorach]

It has been a useful thread for me Brian as I have learnt something that I didn't know, or even better that I thought I knew but didn't. So it is all good and people in England/Scotland get very tied up with the expanding thing so it is hard for them to see that in NI it just doesn't matter and, even better for us, because it doesn't matter here it doesn't matter for us in England.

I know there had been some talk about the need for a visitors permit to vanish and our licensing to be brought in line with England and Scotland but we have to hope that this doesn't mean we will lose the advantages we have, somehow I suspect you never gain once politicians get involved.

 

[ksb]

from my own experience i have bought expanding ammo whilst at various shooting shows in England and the dealer checked my NI FAC and didnt have a problem writing it up. If there was a problem with possession of expanding ammo not being stated i would hope they would have pointed it out. To be honest i have traveled through ferry ports a few times with firearms and have not once been asked to produce a rifle and only once returning on the ferry was i asked to show my FAC.

keith