Struggle with my renewal

[Smellydog]

Just get some of these printed mate and send copies of your other documents.
Just type in what I did. Firearms application forms 201.

 

[willie_gunn]

@Sinistral

Paragraph 2 and 3 are exactly what the issues are. Paragraph 2 to someone who not computer savy it's all garbage.

The reply to my last post- again the difference is 63 years, a 7 year old brought up with smartphones etc and a 70 year old worlds apart.
You mention SOHRS, worked with PC programs for years never heard of it.

We live in an age when an increasing amount of our day-to-day activities have already shifted online. It is inevitably only going to get worse.

Although it may not help you with your current FAC application, there are plenty of free courses run by the likes of the local council to help people become more computer savvy:

Beginners Computing & IT - Staffordshire County Council

www.staffordshire.gov.uk

 

[Smallholder]

I think that for security and cost reasons the system only creates a record when all the entries have been checked, the legal declaration made at the end, and the SEND key pressed. This is no different from signing the old form and posting it. SOHRS sends you back a PDF file by E-Mail displaying everything you've entered straightaway, so there's no argument or misunderstanding. No-one has mentioned this point so far, but it could be important if there's a long delay.

I am IT literate and in fact could probably set up such a system. I did my renewal online about a year ago and unless the system has changed significantly I did not experience what you say. For example, I was not sent a copy of my application and had to email in to ask, then a copy was emailed back but there is security risks sending confidential info via unsecure email.

I can see the benefits of an online system, but IMO it hasn't been set up very well. Forcing people to choose options from drop down menus when many options are not provided isn't great. I could not choose pump and underlever as actions and had to select something else and add free format text on a later page. This isn't useful for a user or the FEO. Then listing options such as 105mm anti tank gun doesn't make sense.

If you have several firearms insisting the user inputs the same details for each one is also bad practice, listing a club or land permission multiple times doesn't make sense. (Note, worth writing common details out on something like notepad so you can cut and paste helps).

Then the biggest pain is the form isn't saved, mine crashed right at the end and I know several people who have had the same problem. So you have to fill it in again and hope. (Another tip is to make sure you have all your details to hand such as referee DOBs and places of birth).

I did feed back my problems and hope it is improved.

I also look after my elderly mum and process many things for her online. She simply cannot cope with many of the forms and never will, especially ones that are not set up correctly. Like many she also has poor internet access so finds it hard to get online at times.

Going back to the OP, as the link to BASC states, legally they should accept a paper form but I would phone them and politely explain your situation and ask.

If I knew anyone locally having problems I'd gladly sit with them and help them through the system. You shouldn't need a modern PC, I did mine on Windows 10 (8 year old PC) but with an up-to-date browser (Chrome).

 

[udderlyoffroad]

I have two years to run on my current FAC and about another year on my SGC. All things being equal I'll be getting my first reminder in about eighteen months and should the online route be the only option, then it may be adios from me. A shame really, I have come a long way in the last eight years, done my DSC1, had some good & exhilarating mentored and guided stalks, joined a few clubs, had a shedload of help and advice from here and obtained some fantastic permissions but most importantly, (I don't know how), it seems to have made me a better person.

Being retired for nigh on fifteen years gives you a better perspective, you have to time to "hover" over the situation without distractions and you soon know how things are really going.

It sounds like it's given you time to massively over-think things. You're proposing to give up your hobby because it might take you some time to fill in a form? Something about noses and faces springs to mind

Your force is still obliged to accept a paper application. In 18 months time your force's system might've improved. Go out stalking and don't worry about it.

I see a country where nothing works, obstacles at every turn, a society and government that doesn't value it elderly, customer service is a distant memory, authority that exists to serve itself and, if you have the temerity to politely and genuinely question any of this, it's call security! or somesuch.

Whilst I have some agreement with that sentiment, it really is a stretch to link the above with moving away from paper-based forms...in 2025.

Then the biggest pain is the form isn't saved, mine crashed right at the end and I know several people who have had the same problem. So you have to fill it in again and hope. (Another tip is to make sure you have all your details to hand such as referee DOBs and places of birth).

Correct - but as mentioned apparently Hampshire have cracked this nut, using 'off the shelf' IT tools. Why this can't be rolled out to other forces is a question for the orgs to ask.

Your comment was probably tongue in cheek but Unfortunately it doesn't help anyone at all, not everyone knows everything, many make out they do but we all know what we make of them. There are a large number of license holders older generation that are not renewing due to the hoops that are forever being placed in front of them, the renewal form being one of them. How many males ask for help with anything ? rather say im OK than ask for help, and a fair few would rather say they have shot for long enough and sell up.

My comment was absolutely not tongue-in-cheek. It is a universal truism of system design that you cannot build an 'idiot proof' system. You must credit your end user with some intelligence, or they will invariably refuse to use it. You talk about human nature, and males refusing to ask* for help, but have never heard of this?

*once again, on an internet forum, where the whole point is to share knowledge.

 

[Sinistral]

I am IT literate and in fact could probably set up such a system. I did my renewal online about a year ago and unless the system has changed significantly I did not experience what you say. For example, I was not sent a copy of my application and had to email in to ask, then a copy was emailed back but there is security risks sending confidential info via unsecure email.

This is the automated acknowledgement which is sent back now, which shows that the system has evolved over time.
I've omitted the identifying entries which ran on for a further 14 pages, and certainly did make extensive use of 'Copy & Paste'.

However, Hampshire have managed to roll out a system where you can save halfway through process. Using off the shelf IT tools. Why on earth we need 40 separate systems to achieve the same thing is madness.

Thanks for the update & info. I've just read the blog on the Hampshire and IOW police website on the Save-and-Return feature developed for their FAC/SGC applications. This appears to be bespoke software written and developed by two IT firms called Infomentum and Sales Force. They've made some very useful improvements with AI-based applications. Infomentum did the writeup which is interesting, but full of buzzwords like 'reaching out', 'building on digital foundations', and the use of 'leverage' as a verb which made me wince. Great stuff nonetheless.

 

[willie_gunn]

This is the automated acknowledgement which is sent back now, which shows that the system has evolved over time.
I've omitted the identifying entries which ran on for a further 14 pages, and certainly did make extensive use of 'Copy & Paste'.

Thanks for the update & info. I've just read the blog on the Hampshire and IOW police website on the Save-and-Return feature developed for their FAC/SGC applications. This appears to be bespoke software written and developed by two IT firms called Infomentum and Sales Force. They've made some very useful improvements with AI-based applications. Infomentum did the writeup which is interesting, but full of buzzwords like 'reaching out', 'building on digital foundations', and the use of 'leverage' as a verb which made me wince. Great stuff nonetheless.

Salesforce is a SaaS (Software as a Service) provider, so offer standard software applications. They started in the CRM (Customer Relationship Management) sector but have expanded beyond there.

Infomentum is an IT consultancy with a large Salesforce practice and strong integration capabilities. They have probably developed the custom extensions that are used on top of Salesforce.

They seem to have an online webinar, including a demo of the solution:

Hyperautomation in Public Safety & Defence - webinar recording

Discover the Salesforce-powered solution that enhances the licensing process and improves applicants' experience for Firearms Licensing

info.infomentum.com

Looks like this solution is also used by Thames Valley Police - so the system I've just used for my renewal (although I don't recall the "save and return" feature).

 

[Whitefront]

By chance, just spoken to a friend who is with Thames Valley. He does online banking and copes pretty well with everyday IT stuff, but the online renewal process for his SGC made him seriously consider just giving up. He was under the impression, given to him by TVP, that he had no option but to do an online renewal. He has now discovered that he is in fact entitled to submit hard copy, which has come as an enormous relief.

Whatever the sneery comments from arrogant geeks who spend more time playing computer games than shooting game, the observable fact is that many older shooters are put under undue stress by online application systems that are deeply flawed and take no account of customer profile and requirements. I wonder how many certificate holders are quietly giving up because of this?

 

[Smellydog]

By chance, just spoken to a friend who is with Thames Valley. He does online banking and copes pretty well with everyday IT stuff, but the online renewal process for his SGC made him seriously consider just giving up. He was under the impression, given to him by TVP, that he had no option but to do an online renewal. He has now discovered that he is in fact entitled to submit hard copy, which has come as an enormous relief.

Whatever the sneery comments from arrogant geeks who spend more time playing computer games than shooting game, the observable fact is that many older shooters are put under undue stress by online application systems that are deeply flawed and take no account of customer profile and requirements. I wonder how many certificate holders are quietly giving up because of this?

I know of young folk that found it a pain also but yes to many and all ages it's a daunting task.

 

[old 30-06]

Final update on this saga.........................It would appear this computer is old, and could never be compatible with the Firearms system, so I have been flogging a dead horse.

I have paid someone to submit my application for me. It has now been submitted and received by them.

After long hours of frustration it is one of the best £50 i have spent.

 

[udderlyoffroad]

Infomentum did the writeup which is interesting, but full of buzzwords like 'reaching out', 'building on digital foundations', and the use of 'leverage' as a verb which made me wince. Great stuff nonetheless.

Indeed the blog article is a thinly-veiled sales pitch. But the point remains, it really isn't a difficult problem to solve, or rather it has been solved before in both the public and private sectors. Far more complex 'workflows' are used by the great british public on a daily basis, the forces really need to get a grip on this, for their own sake.

I know of young folk that found it a pain also but yes to many and all ages it's a daunting task.

I wouldn't count myself as particularly young or even that IT savvy. I found the Avon and Somerset online form tedious, and definitely lacking a save function a la Hampshire. But I read the notes first, ensured I had gathered the required information, and did it all in one sitting, with a drink in my hand and the dog gently snoring at my feet. It certainly wouldn't be enough to put me off renewing, still seems a silly hill on which to die to me.

Here's my final run-up at a constructive suggestion: Why don't some of the older members, concerned it may be their last renewal, seek the assistance of their younger mentees for help with their renewal? You are taking younger people out, aren't you? Passing the torch onto the next generation and all that.

 

[AGR]

D&C were quite happy to have printed forms when their online system wouldn't accept my address as a valid one, and I paid by cheque.