The Great Lead Free Ammunition Conspiracy

[JabaliHunter]

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[Hornet]

Perhaps, assuming we did have some legislation banning the use of lead bullets for venison entering the food chain, a compromise could be reached,in that lead could still be used on animals for your own consumption, and none lead for those intended for the game dealer???

 

[bogtrotter]

Copper is also toxic, just saying.

 

[ChesterP]

This is tedious, and what is astonishing about it is that much of the wilful ignorance is coming from the side that favours non-lead. These threads come around and the same issues pop up and are ignored:
1. Lead compounds are highly toxic. Lead metal is relatively inert. Arguments alluding to lead paint, leaded petrol etc. are totally without merit and only reveal the proponent's ignorance of basic chemistry.

2. Deliberate misinterpretation of scientific papers. Eating lead-shot venison (not shotgun-shot small game) can lead to elevated levels of lead in blood. This effect is mainly associated with eating burgers/mince. The raised levels of lead in blood are a)transient and b) nearly always below safety limits. Some of the papers found that reloading is a similar level of exposure to lead (even loading copper bullets).
Other foods considered entirely safe cause higher lead exposures.
Using lead ammunition does expose the consumer to lead. That exposure involves a risk. That risk is so infinitesimal as to be completely negligible. No human has ever been identified as suffering an illness as a result of lead exposure from eating game. There is no rational case for avoiding lead on the grounds of human health.

3. People having the ludicrous beliefs that magic new alternatives will be developed or that non-lead bullets will ever become cheaper or similar price to lead. Copper is several times more expensive than lead. You can't just will other elements into becoming more abundant. It's not a matter of technology or mass production efficiencies chipping in. The materials are more expensive and the manufacture is more expensive.
The same applies to lead shot. There is no possibility of a direct replacement for lead being developed. All alternatives will continue to be worse or vastly more expensive. Note that the safety of bismuth is unverified and it is also a "heavy metal" so likely to cause problems.

4. There is no good reason not to try e.g. copper bullets. Everyone should. (They were totally useless in my current rifle, sadly.) There is also no good reason to support this agenda of phasing out lead ammunition. People should just respect each other's right to fire what they like and remember that this debate arises in light of non-lead enthusiasts campaigning to restrict others' access to lead. Also, respect that the science does not support any conclusion that lead ammunition is harmful.

5. Wilful misrepresentation of risk. This year, more than any, we must be aware of the dangers of failing to understand relative risks. The movement to lead-replacement is a harmful red herring.
Risks should be addressed sensibly, and the greatest risks mitigated first. Lead ammunition is so far down the list on food safety, animal health, environmental contamination and threat to fieldsports as to be merely a counter-productive distraction. We don't need any more self-inflicted own goals.

This^^^^

Greta post....nail on head.

It is the wilful or ignorant mis-representation of the whole lead ammunition debate by those who are obviously otherwise intelligent but suffer from "little knowledge is a dangerous thing" syndrome, or take so called evidential papers on the subject whilst wilfully ignoring threshold safety levels that beggars belief. Too much copper is also poisonous, too much antimony is poisonous etc. A little perspective and less tearing the hair out and running round like the sky is falling every time someone mentions lead might be worth examining. Blinking heck, we have enough trouble from anti's without bringing in the demise of the wider sport where copper simply is NOT the panacea claimed but more a politically correct answer to a problem which really does not exist except on paper. How many of you lot who have been using lead all your lives suffer increased lead levels to anything like levels that could be harmful to health? Have a look at what is involved for the toxicity to be metabolised. It's not as cut and dry a subject as many would have some believe. The way that ANY shot meat is processed needs review, be that shot using lead or copper bullets and a better understanding by shooters and game dealers and EVERYONE in the food chain about how toxins are actually metabolised would be a great start.

The fact that the food chain currently permits deer shot using lead bullets to enter it should tell you something. It's a very heavily regulated part of the industry and for good reason. There is no way I'd subject myself nor anyone in my family to serious risk so before we all jump on the banning lead bullet bandwagon, perhaps some more investigative study on the alternatives might be considered a wise move and from more than one or two completely independent resources which have looked at this subject in great detail and aren't just regurgitating internet evidence.

 

[Jagare]

Sorry can I ask a non-stalker question about all of this.. whats the problem with not using lead bullets? Even if they cost say 10X more than lead, do you shoot enough to make a massive financial impact or is it that they dont expand as well?
As a shotgun game shooter I've had to use Bismuth or similar on Ducks and Geese for years and they seem to work Ok, you just learn to be selective.
Though I have to say if they banned lead in clay loads I'd have to go onto steel, I can get through a thousand in some months

How much practice are you going to be doing with this expensive ammo? Or are you that one gifted shot that needs no practice? Animal welfare will come second to curing a non problem.

 

[CarlW]

This truly is a storm that shooters are whipping up for themselves. Joe Public really couldn't give a toss about lead in venison.

If people want to shoot copper bullets, go ahead. I do so myself for certain applications (Barnes TSX are a fabulous dangerous-game bullet). However, quite why some shooters feel the need to restrict the choices of others to use lead is beyond me.

 

[sgurrdamh]

For years we used poison to kill vermin, it was incredibly effective and in other parts of the world it’s still used.

would it be the right thing for us to use?

 

[Roestalker39]

For years we used poison to kill vermin, it was incredibly effective and in other parts of the world it’s still used.

would it be the right thing for us to use?

Yes !

 

[Alantoo]

This truly is a storm that shooters are whipping up for themselves. Joe Public really couldn't give a toss about lead in venison.

If people want to shoot copper bullets, go ahead. I do so myself for certain applications (Barnes TSX are a fabulous dangerous-game bullet). However, quite why some shooters feel the need to restrict the choices of others to use lead is beyond me.

You do need to be careful sharing any positive experience of non-lead bullets on here...you are likely to get a Mr. Angry telling you that you are anti-lead...are campaigning against shooting...or that you are trying to impose your views on somebody else...or even restricting the choice of another shooter...crazy I know, but it happens.

Alan

 

[cjm1066]

Shot guns pellets in game seem to be intact when I find them, of course they are largely inert until they reacts with my stomach juices.

A typical soft point bullet loses considerable weight as it passes through an animal, were does that lead go - all downrange and venison is lead free, alas I suspect most is within the carcase outside the zone of obvious meat damage.

 

[long_range_rob]

I thought the LAG died a death many years ago, fell apart, exploded inwards with members resigning.

I would have thought they fragmented

 

[Apthorpe]

Shot guns pellets in game seem to be intact when I find them, of course they are largely inert until they reacts with my stomach juices.

A typical soft point bullet loses considerable weight as it passes through an animal, were does that lead go - all downrange and venison is lead free, alas I suspect most is within the carcase outside the zone of obvious meat damage.

 

[Conor O'Gorman]

I have found this a very interesting, rational and informed debate. On Tuesday there may be further developments.

See BASC fights EU lead ammunition restrictions | The British Association for Shooting and Conservation

 

[User00025]

Indeed.

However that elephant in the room is dealt with by a combination of the fact that monolithic bullets are not "non-toxic" but rather "less toxic" and that is by virtue of the fact that, unlike traditional lead ammunition which spreads particles of the toxic material throughout and surrounding the impact site, a copper monolithic bullet will retain almost 100% of its mass after it has done what it was designed to do.

EDIT: In saying that, I believe that the RWS HIT may be 100% Tin (which is "food safe") and would therefore be properly termed "non toxic"?

The RWS Evo green is also tin, been using them in 30R Blaser, work very well.

 

[sikadog]

Yes they want to ban lead ammo but I bet there is still a few million tons of lead paint on the walls in London though.

And millions of tons of lead flashing on roofs

 

[User00014]

Bit pricey if you shout over 100 deer a year ....

No it’s not, 100 deer a year at an average of 10kg @ £1/kg is £1000

non toxic factory round at average £3 a pop that’s £300 for ammunition

By my maths there is still £700 in the kitty

why stalkers think shooting non toxic ammunition is expensive I do not know.

 

[geoshot]

I was kinda couldn't care either way about lead-based ammo, ie was neither really for or against it, it was always just what was used.
I watched the recent FSB show on "lead-free bullet killability" for something to do during lockdown, and it got me thinking & reading
I checked out the scientific papers which were discussed on the programme and used the reference lists in them to direct further research - lockdown again, plus I'm a scientist (of sorts) in my current day job and have been a lab-based scientist in a previous occupation, so researching papers kinda comes naturally.
I became intrigued and started to think that maybe it was time I checked out alternatives to lead-based ammo
I also chatted it over with a few others in the syndicate that I'm a member of and found that I wasn't alone in how I got to thinking about ammo choices and/or my conclusions
A couple of chats with mates of mine who are falconers sealed it
Following a couple of very, well, how can I put it? Energetic conversations with them I decided to give lead-free a try

I remembered a thread about Peregrine bullets initiated by Ed of Edinburgh Rifles so I got in contact with him
I hope to be trialling a load soon, little doubt it will do the job

 

[Roestalker39]

No it’s not, 100 deer a year at an average of 10kg @ £1/kg is £1000

non toxic factory round at average £3 a pop that’s £300 for ammunition

By my maths there is still £700 in the kitty

why stalkers think shooting non toxic ammunition is expensive I do not know.

Still way more expensive than lead , and an extra 300 gets me ten more outings in fuel , I know what I’d rather spend it on and will continue to spend it on

 

[User00014]

Still way more expensive than lead , and an extra 300 gets me ten more outings in fuel , I know what I’d rather spend it on and will continue to spend it on

Each to their own

 

[Alantoo]

Bit pricey if you shout over 100 deer a year ....

No it’s not, 100 deer a year at an average of 10kg @ £1/kg is £1000

non toxic factory round at average £3 a pop that’s £300 for ammunition

By my maths there is still £700 in the kitty

why stalkers think shooting non toxic ammunition is expensive I do not know.

Still way more expensive than lead , and an extra 300 gets me ten more outings in fuel , I know what I’d rather spend it on and will continue to spend it on

Remind me not to rely on either of you two for any mathematics beyond counting on my fingers...

If you only get £10 worth of meat per carcass you are not doing very well at all...let alone that if non-lead ammunition costs £300, you do not get an extra £300 simply by not using it...unless you truly do kill your deer by shouting at them.

Interestingly, according to Dauntsey guns, the small difference in cost between Federal's factory Nosler BTs and their factory Barnes TTSX is £5 per box and it is the lead-core bullets which are the more expensive!

The cost of the bullet relative to the cost of or return from a stalk is really insignificant I think...but each to their own!

Alan