The Great Lead Free Ammunition Conspiracy

[kes]

Was John Swift a CEO of BASC ?
Did he chair the LAG ?
Did he produce a minority report to DEFRA recommending a lead ban, along with others whose motives could be understood, even if their science could not ?
Has BASC, after effectively disowning Swift by saying he "is no longer a member" and adopting the mantra "no sound evidence - no change", now adopted his persepctive on lead ?
I am not mentioning staffing problems.
Did BASC consult with the ammunition manufacturers - not according to them, from their joint statement.
So why am I driving shooting apart ?
Is what I post, fairly thus described "what come across to most on here as rants which only drive disunity in the shooting community". I am sure I will be told by those who read them. So far your " most" should perhaps be " a few".
Is it against shooting to point out disingenuous behavior, or is it the beginnings of driving truth ?
I would have stood for BASC but received no confirmation that I would not be unreasonably expelled by the use of existing rules. I would still do so.
I wrote to the President prior to that and voiced concerns and was asked in response by the current CEO, in a very short letter, to rejoin and change from the inside - see above.
You continually target what I post with inaccurate and unreasonable dogma.
Tell me why I should bother ringing when the things I have said are known to most in shooting who seek protection of their sport.
Why engage with such dogma - I have tried but received no comment.
Is it my fault - of course it is, BASC is completely blameless.

Until a close and honest review is taken of the last few years, BASC will not recover lost ground and lost members, just my opinion,take it or leave it, as with all things I post.
Perhaps you might consider withdrawing your suggestion of racism ?
Please dont bother me again.

 

[Alantoo]

And out of interest how many deer a year do you shoot ?

And out of interest how many rounds do you get through in your deer rifles in a year including zeroing, practice, load development, and deer?

I have just looked it up and until the 14. March this year I pulled the trigger some 1837 times with my current 308 which I acquired in August 2015. About 60:1 practice/load development to every opportunity at deer. Of that 1837 at paper about 40% lead and 60% non-lead...about 2/3 of the lead core were home load 110 V_MAX the rest HPS Target Master Sierra Match and S and B FMJs. The non-lead were mainly TTSX with a part box or two each of some GMX, Fox, Barnes MPG, Brenneke Tugs and Peregrine. Last four years all hunted deer have been shot with non-lead. All bar four HAD callouts/occasions with lead shot, one with lead slug, two with TTSX, one with steel...in knife form.

Alan

 

[Alantoo]

The RWS Evo green is also tin, been using them in 30R Blaser, work very well.

My experience with monolithic bullets has been over penetration, worse than using FMJ ball.

When you say over-penetration did they "pencil through" and not kill the deer?

What bullet, calibre, velocity, range and shot placement were you using?

Have you considered the twin tin core bullets like the RWS Evo green mentioned by @The fourth Horseman or the Brenneke Tug Blei-frei which also have a frangible tin front section and a bonded tin core rear?

Alan

 

[Roestalker39]

And out of interest how many rounds do you get through in your deer rifles in a year including zeroing, practice, load development, and deer?

I have just looked it up and until the 14. March this year I pulled the trigger some 1837 times with my current 308 which I acquired in August 2015. About 60:1 practice/load development to every opportunity at deer. Of that 1837 at paper about 40% lead and 60% non-lead...about 2/3 of the lead core were home load 110 V_MAX the rest HPS Target Master Sierra Match and S and B FMJs. The non-lead were mainly TTSX with a part box or two each of some GMX, Fox, Barnes MPG, Brenneke Tugs and Peregrine. Last four years all hunted deer have been shot with non-lead. All bar four HAD callouts/occasions with lead shot, one with lead slug, two with TTSX, one with steel...in knife form.

Alan

I’d say probably in the .222 around 400 + a year as it’s my small deer / fox / long range vermin rifle ( favourite ha ha ) and each of the 7mms around 2-300 each ....... so all in all about 1000 rounds a year of centrefire
I should add this is a little bit of a guesstimate as I’m not the best at record keeping

 

[Alantoo]

I’d say probably in the .222 around 400 + a year as it’s my small deer / fox / long range vermin rifle ( favourite ha ha ) and each of the 7mms around 2-300 each ....... so all in all about 1000 rounds a year of centrefire
I should add this is a little bit of a guesstimate as I’m not the best at record keeping

So depending on fox tally about 10:1 paper / practice to deer? I seem to remember you mentioning in earlier posts that you are out 2 or 3 times a week and average 100 odd deer a year. Interesting.

I am normally poor at record keeping...I used to have quite a good memory and never needed keep notes for anything, especially after I took on a bookkeeper so I didn't have to remember that side of the business, but alas no longer... However fired up by the new toy enthusiasm after the huge outlay on the new rifle I kept every target I shot at with it and added any non-target rounds to the ongoing tally in the lever file...I have no record of shotgun, 22LR or Airrifle numbers at all.

Alan

 

[Roestalker39]

So depending on fox tally about 10:1 paper / practice to deer? I seem to remember you mentioning in earlier posts that you are out 2 or 3 times a week and average 100 odd deer a year. Interesting.

I am normally poor at record keeping...I used to have quite a good memory and never needed keep notes for anything, especially after I took on a bookkeeper so I didn't have to remember that side of the business, but alas no longer... However fired up by the new toy enthusiasm after the huge outlay on the new rifle I kept every target I shot at with it and added any non-target rounds to the ongoing tally in the lever file...I have no record of shotgun, 22LR or Airrifle numbers at all.

Alan

I generally do around 150 deer a year on average ( last year I think was nearly 200 ) plus a lot of foxes corvids etc , to be honest I don’t do a lot of paper punching or practice anymore as I’m out a lot anyway , I honestly wouldn’t know how many rimfire rounds I shoot per year but quite a few , not much shotgun though

 

[Alantoo]

I generally do around 150 deer a year on average ( last year I think was nearly 200 ) plus a lot of foxes corvids etc , to be honest I don’t do a lot of paper punching or practice anymore as I’m out a lot anyway , I honestly wouldn’t know how many rimfire rounds I shoot per year but quite a few , not much shotgun though

So 5:1? My emerging theory still holds good-ish then.

The reason I was interested...we were talking about the relative cost of lead vs non-lead bullets and your exchange with @leec6.5 followed by your question regarding the number of deer I shoot...got me to thinking that even a hunter as productive as you was likely to shoot more bullets at paper than just at deer...so the cost of bullet relative to deer downed was a bit of a red herring...let alone that some lead core ammunition is more expensive than some non-lead....

Alan

 

[Roestalker39]

So 5:1? My emerging theory still holds good-ish then.

The reason I was interested...we were talking about the relative cost of lead vs non-lead bullets and your exchange with @leec6.5 followed by your question regarding the number of deer I shoot...got me to thinking that even a hunter as productive as you was likely to shoot more bullets at paper than just at deer...so the cost of bullet relative to deer downed was a bit of a red herring...let alone that some lead core ammunition is more expensive than some non-lead....

Alan

I doubt it’s 5:1 to be honest , I do get what you’re getting at but I won’t be switching to non lead , in my opinion what we’re doing as a group is very bad for our sport and way of life , what next ? Keeping our firearms at police stations ? We love creating issues from complete non problems

 

[User00014]

So 5:1? My emerging theory still holds good-ish then.

The reason I was interested...we were talking about the relative cost of lead vs non-lead bullets and your exchange with @leec6.5 followed by your question regarding the number of deer I shoot...got me to thinking that even a hunter as productive as you was likely to shoot more bullets at paper than just at deer...so the cost of bullet relative to deer downed was a bit of a red herring...let alone that some lead core ammunition is more expensive than some non-lead....

Alan

The only time I shoot paper or have shot paper is to check zero after cleaning and that’s one a year maybe 3 rounds or so, or load development back when loading my own.

Never have been a paper puncher.

I buy 100 rounds of fox factory ammunition, there will be 90 dead deer inc the odd fox.

I’ve come to the conclusion that the day I have to worry about the cost of your bullets, it the day I pack it in.

 

[Alantoo]

I doubt it’s 5:1 to be honest , I do get what you’re getting at but I won’t be switching to non lead , in my opinion what we’re doing as a group is very bad for our sport and way of life , what next ? Keeping our firearms at police stations ? We love creating issues from complete non problems

It is a pity if you do not do some experimentation with the non-lead bulets. I think we will have to move to non-lead eventually, even if it is not prompted by legislation then by consumer. It would be really good to have more people in your position of ample opportunity for field trial to share their experience of the positives and negatives of the various non-lead alternatives, both frangible and monolithic...

Alan

The only time I shoot paper or have shot paper is to check zero after cleaning and that’s one a year maybe 3 rounds or so, or load development back when loading my own.

Never have been a paper puncher.

I buy 100 rounds of fox factory ammunition, there will be 90 dead deer inc the odd fox.

I’ve come to the conclusion that the day I have to worry about the cost of your bullets, it the day I pack it in.

Dammit! Another cunning theory dashed.

But at least we came to the same conclusion.

Alan

 

[User00014]

I doubt it’s 5:1 to be honest , I do get what you’re getting at but I won’t be switching to non lead , in my opinion what we’re doing as a group is very bad for our sport and way of life , what next ? Keeping our firearms at police stations ? We love creating issues from complete non problems

absolute tosh!

a lead ban will come eventually, no point moaning about it, because it will get you know where and it will just happen regardless of that the shooting community think about it.

get over it, adapt and crack on.

its simple, I saw this coming years ago.

I found a couple of non toxic bullets I liked, chose the one that was easily available and use it, does exactly the same job as lead.

cost doesn’t even come into it!

I go out and shoot 3 Hinds in a morning, that’s my ammunition of the next year paid for.

 

[308tikka]

Ive never met a single person who has ever told me they have lead poisoning or are losing brain function from it. However I have met lots of people with heart/ cardiovascular disease as a result of eating red meat etc. (not that i am against eating red meat btw) Im just trying to put perspective on what I think is a farce.
Unfortunately were all going to die one day and its not going to be lead poisoning.
It doesn't matter what projectile is used as it is always going to be pollutant of the planet/food so cant we just use lead in moderation? rather than a blanket ban?

Its like changing cars to electric to make them greener but we still have to dig up a mountain to get the rare earth metals to make the batteries etc.
If we only had one car option instead of thousands and just bought replacement parts to keep the same car going for decades sureley that would be the answer.

We do.

Its called Land Rover Defender.