The Grey Squirrel as a Training Aid

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petlowe

Well-Known Member
Had a really pleasant autumn day coaching wifie on sticks technique, target acquisition and shooting with squirrels and a subsonic 22LR providing the perfect deer simulator. Never has training been so fulfilling for how much I detest those little tree rats. 33 down and good shooting out to 80 yards achieved.

We are going back for more!
 
petlowe said:
Had a really pleasant autumn day coaching wifie on sticks technique, target acquisition and shooting with squirrels and a subsonic 22LR providing the perfect deer simulator. Never has training been so fulfilling for how much I detest those little tree rats. 33 down and good shooting out to 80 yards achieved.

We are going back for more!
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33 Squirrels in 1 day ? Goodness.

Can I ask- why do you hate them ?
 
scotch_egg said:
Yes why does the OP hate an invasive species that wreaks havoc and carnage across the flora and fauna of the U.K.?
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All species are invasive if you go back far enough. I really don't understand this argument...

If greys were native- but did exactly as much damage as they do- would people hate them any less? I doubt it. Over half the British deer species are invasive- do you hate them too ?

Havoc and carnage arent the words i would use- i save such strong words for natural disasters, multiple car pile ups etc- but yes- lots of animals change their environment to survive. Does that warrant hate ?

I can't get my head around the idea of "hating" any animal personally. They are just following their instincts- as nature has designed them. And if we are to apply moralistic values and judgements to all animals- just for the fun of it- squirrels really wouldn't do that badly.

Just so I can understand the scale of your language- if grey squirrels cause "havoc and carnage"- how would you describe the typical effects of a tsunami?
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
All species are invasive if you go back far enough. I really don't understand this argument...

If greys were native- but did exactly as much damage as they do- would people hate them any less? I doubt it. Over half the British deer species are invasive- do you hate them too ?

Havoc and carnage arent the words i would use- i save such strong words for natural disasters, multiple car pile ups etc- but yes- lots of animals change their environment to survive. Does that warrant hate ?

I can't get my head around the idea of "hating" any animal personally. They are just following their instincts- as nature has designed them. And if we are to apply moralistic values and judgements to all animals- just for the fun of it- squirrels really wouldn't do that badly.

Just so I can understand the scale of your language- if grey squirrels cause "havoc and carnage"- how would you describe the typical effects of a tsunami?
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Catastrophic
 
well i suppose you could like them if they didnt eat song bird eggs and young, bark trees causing damage for forestry, invade lifts, strip wires, damage fascias, damage wood work, damage plumbing, damage bird feeders, damage pheasant hoppers, spread squirrel pox, eat unripe nuts. other than that i can isee why you could like them
 
scotch_egg said:
Catastrophic
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Fair enough. A tsunami with a fortunate squirrel stripping the bark off a surviving sapling would be your idea of hell then. Or at the least it would certainly max out your strongest adjectives ;)

shakey jake said:
well i suppose you could like them if they didnt eat song bird eggs and young, bark trees causing damage for forestry, invade lifts, strip wires, damage fascias, damage wood work, damage plumbing, damage bird feeders, damage pheasant hoppers, spread squirrel pox, eat unripe nuts. other than that i can isee why you could like them
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I didn't say I liked them. I said I don't hate them. Or any animals for that matter.
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
Fair enough. A tsunami with a fortunate squirrel stripping the bark off a surviving sapling would be your idea of hell then. Or at the least it would certainly max out your strongest adjectives ;)



I didn't say I liked them. I said I don't hate them. Or any animals for that matter.
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As responsible members of the community that has both the means and the awareness of what invasive species do to forest life and has capacity to provide control for land owners desperate for same I am surprised by this.
The land owner wants them gone as they are doing genuine harm to the birch trees in their ancient forrest and they are predating songbirds, what's defensible on their contribution to species decline other than they are furry?

I like deer shooting for the sport and the money but if you are on a permission then it's your obligation to also maintain control of invasive species, muntjac, squirrel, green parrots etc, no one else is better placed.
 
petlowe said:
As responsible members of the community that has both the means and the awareness of what invasive species do to forest life and has capacity to provide control for land owners desperate for same I am surprised by this.
The land owner wants them gone as they are doing genuine harm to the birch trees in their ancient forrest and they are predating songbirds, what's defensible on their contribution to species decline other than they are furry?

I like deer shooting for the sport and the money but if you are on a permission then it's your obligation to also maintain control of invasive species, muntjac, squirrel, green parrots etc, no one else is better placed.
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Re-read what I wrote please :)

I have no issue with shooting squirrels. In fact I would say I shot my fair share every year- 50-100. I shoot them in areas that they do real damage to new (ish) plantations.

The point I was making was-

a) I don't hate any animal. How can anyone hate an animal for doing exactly what nature (or in some cases, man) designed it to do ?

b) just because something is invasive- it doesn't diminish it's right to exist in any way IMO. If it does- we should hold all invasive species to the same standard. (Bye bye munties, fallow and CWD......)

c) At no point did I say they shouldn't be controlled.
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
Re-read what I wrote please :)

I have no issue with shooting squirrels. In fact I would say I shot my fair share every year- 50-100. I shoot them in areas that they do real damage to new (ish) plantations.

The point I was making was-

a) I don't hate any animal. How can anyone hate an animal for doing exactly what nature (or in some cases, man) designed it to do ?

b) just because something is invasive- it doesn't diminish it's right to exist in any way IMO. If it does- we should hold all invasive species to the same standard. (Bye bye munties, fallow and CWD......)

c) At no point did I say they shouldn't be controlled.
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We have to be careful with these discussions and not play into the hands of our opponents.

Much of wildlife management comes done to 'what is the objective' - that might be protection of fauna or flora, it might be maintaining biodiversity but that opens up the can of worms regarding how bio diverse any landscape would naturally be without the hand of man.

While, like you, I hate no creatures, prior to growing-on koi carp in farm ponds over 30 years ago I used to like seeing the odd heron but my appreciation of them changed the more financial investment that I put into fish stocking. Likewise, prior to part time 'keepering in the 90's I shot a few squirrels but they didn't really bother me too much but when they started eating through my feeders I was a little more annoyed with them and shot a few more. Granted, damage to trees and nesting birds was a more harmful part of their behavior but personally, finding destroyed feeders was the catalyst for me shooting more.

The point about being invasive or non-indigenous isn't always going to be a reason to control or eliminate a species but if they also happen to be extremely successful in their new habitat then that alone can cause a problem, both in terms of competition with native species and the very environment that they inhabit.
 
Keith Edmunds said:
We have to be careful with these discussions and not play into the hands of our opponents.

Much of wildlife management comes done to 'what is the objective' - that might be protection of fauna or flora, it might be maintaining biodiversity but that opens up the can of worms regarding how bio diverse any landscape would naturally be without the hand of man.

While, like you, I hate no creatures, prior to growing-on koi carp in farm ponds over 30 years ago I used to like seeing the odd heron but my appreciation of them changed the more financial investment that I put into fish stocking. Likewise, prior to part time 'keepering in the 90's I shot a few squirrels but they didn't really bother me too much but when they started eating through my feeders I was a little more annoyed with them and shot a few more. Granted, damage to trees and nesting birds was a more harmful part of their behavior but personally, finding destroyed feeders was the catalyst for me shooting more.

The point about being invasive or non-indigenous isn't always going to be a reason to control or eliminate a species but if they also happen to be extremely successful in their new habitat then that alone can cause a problem, both in terms of competition with native species and the very environment that they inhabit.
Click to expand...

Yup agreed :)
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
Re-read what I wrote please :)

I have no issue with shooting squirrels. In fact I would say I shot my fair share every year- 50-100. I shoot them in areas that they do real damage to new (ish) plantations.

The point I was making was-

a) I don't hate any animal. How can anyone hate an animal for doing exactly what nature (or in some cases, man) designed it to do ?

b) just because something is invasive- it doesn't diminish it's right to exist in any way IMO. If it does- we should hold all invasive species to the same standard. (Bye bye munties, fallow and CWD......)

c) At no point did I say they shouldn't be controlled.
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Apologies, my hate of invasive species comes from being Australian, we have a protected ecosystem and my hunting career to date has only ever been on the control of introduced pests and animals that need population control.
Cats, Foxes, Rabbits Pigs, Roo. This is why I have predominately focused on same in the UK with Muntjac, Fallow, Signal Cray etc and Lion fish in the Caribbean and beyond. Roe get an easy going from me aka within a cull plan and more left than taken.

Hunters have a strong ecological role to play and squirrels are not cute or nice or desirable. I just wish they were easier to eat :D
 
petlowe said:
Apologies, my hate of invasive species comes from being Australian, we have a protected ecosystem and my hunting career to date has only ever been on the control of introduced pests and animals that need population control.
Cats, Foxes, Rabbits Pigs, Roo. This is why I have predominately focused on same in the UK with Muntjac, Fallow, Signal Cray etc and Lion fish in the Caribbean and beyond. Roe get an easy going from me aka within a cull plan and more left than taken.

Hunters have a strong ecological role to play and squirrels are not cute or nice or desirable. I just wish they were easier to eat :D
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That makes a little more sense....

But wherever you're from in the world- you adopt the attitude of the host country and try not to bring your prejudices with you ;) There are very few parallels between the dangers to the ecosystem of Oz and to the UK.

I'm afraid I still don't think you get my point. Using words like "not cute, nice or desirable" is still you putting your human values onto an animal that is simply a product of its environment.

You object to people humanising animals by calling them cute- but then are hypocritical when you say they "aren't nice and aren't desirable" because you too are applying human values and anthropomorphising. You also prioritise some species over others (birds over squirrels).

Shoot them if you want. They do damage trees of a certain age. The damage to songbirds is v small but justify it however you wish.

Are you pro red squirrel ? Because unless there are reds in the vicinity- then the greys are performing a v similar task within the ecosystem that the reds used to.....
 
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