Training Merits

North Stalker

Well-Known Member
Certification comes down to accountability.

You want to drive a car, you need a licence
Want to drive another type of vehicle (Motorbike, HGV) you need another licence, the list could go on.

Having a bit of paper does not make you any better than the person who has none, but in today's society of blame culture, if you have a certificate or licence to carryout an activity. It takes the accountability away from the person that gives the authorization.

What I have found is that someone looking for "X" and stating that they must have "X" this and "X" that narrows down the accountability for an incident by proving competency, albeit to a minimum standard needed to get the 'Bit of paper" needed.

Would you want your car built by HR Manager? Nothing wrong with HR Managers, they are very good at what they do. Would you want your house built by a HGV driver? Again, very good at what they do. You cant get your CORGI card without having proved your worthy of it, doesn't mean accidents don't happen. Society is a blame culture, by having documentation to show competency gives the person asking for whatever piece of mind that they have reduced to likelihood to ALARP.

I have paid for plenty bits of paper, but I know some who have none and they are better operators of some equipment or whatever the "Bit of paper" provides. But if it came down to it, an employer or individual would take the "Bit of paper" holder over the NO "Bit of paper" holder due to accountability.

I recently had to do a test of competency, during the test, the topic of a high seat was mentioned. To use a high seat, that has ladder access and egress, I would have to to a ladder course. If I then fell during access, use of or egress, then this would be my fault as I have done the training of how access, use and egress.

Just my pennies worth.
 
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foxdropper

Well-Known Member
From the very first Dsc candidate ,the floodgates were opened for more and there will be more ,even for those who are licensed to the hilt ,it’s of your own making so wallow in it .Im insured ,the only requirement any of the farmers on 16 farms require .
The training schemes were ,I have no doubt, set up to provide an introduction to the sport for those not fortunate enough to have a mentor and as a show that the candidate was somewhat proficient by passing ,however what’s actually happened is the money men have taken over to try to promote this training as the ONLY exceptable manner in which to enter the sport by way of using the current blame culture as a scare tactic and preying on the newby in what is a very fast growing industry .
If this were not so we would have compulsory training in every aspect of field sports involving guns from walked up rough days to lamping foxes at night .
Stalking seems to be ok to target though but why .All forms of publically accessible gun sports have a risk and most involve an end result of killing something but deer seem to be on a pedestal in this respect ,a far cry from the vermin they were perceived as when I first got a rifle .
No form of training can ever take the place of time spent no matter the spin created by those making money or the exuberance of some here to promote it .
Some it seems are happy to be their own worst enemies and feel the need to create what essentially is not there .
 
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jimbo1984

Well-Known Member
From the very first Dsc candidate ,the floodgates were opened for more and there will be more ,even for those who are licensed to the hilt ,it’s of your own making so wallow in it .Im insured ,the only requirement any of the farmers on 16 farms require .
The training schemes were ,I have no doubt, set up to provide an introduction to the sport for those not fortunate enough to have a mentor and as a show that the candidate was somewhat proficient by passing ,however what’s actually happened is the money men have taken over to try to promote this training as the ONLY exceptable manner in which to enter the sport by way of using the current blame culture as a scare tactic and preying on the newby in what is a very fast growing industry .
If this were not so we would have compulsory training in every aspect of field sports involving guns from walked up rough days to lamping foxes at night .
Stalking seems to be ok to target though but why .All forms of publically accessible gun sports have a risk and most involve an end result of killing something but deer seem to be on a pedestal in this respect ,a far cry from the vermin they were perceived as when I first got a rifle .
No form of training can ever take the place of time spent no matter the spin created by those making money or the exuberance of some here to promote it .
Some it seems are happy to be their own worst enemies and feel the need to create what essentially is not there .
Exactly right mate we don’t need enemies like antis when we have people like that in our midst
 

foxdropper

Well-Known Member
Wouldn’t say enemies necessarily just misguided intentions from the outset that has in my opinion created a rift in the sport between those who have spent time and those who think paper solves everything and the minority’s who undoubtedly look down on those who refuse to do a 3 day course on something they have done all their life.
Why are some of those who have done the course wanting to ram it down the throats of those who dont feel the need or ever will .Is it the need to try and justify the spending incurred or for the pat on the back they undoubtedly think they deserve .
 
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Orion

Well-Known Member
The training schemes were ,I have no doubt, set up to provide an introduction to the sport for those not fortunate enough to have a mentor and as a show that the candidate was somewhat proficient by passing
Nope, you’re totally on the wrong track there.

The DSC system was put in place, and very largely driven by BASC and their Deer Officer at the time, (Mid 1990’s), on the the premise that at some time in the future there would be a requirement to ‘prove’ competence to the authorities in some form. BDS, which already had the NSCC in place, which with the WSCC that proceeded it were certification for existing stalkers to demonstrate their competence and not as a means to gain a ‘deer’ FAC, leases from public bodies or become an ‘instant deer manager’ ;), and which DSC1 was based on, (plagiarised might be a better description), were, to all intents and purposes, railroaded into complying with it.

Do a search on the DI, DMQ, BASC and the personnel involved past and present (including Companies House) and you might see a pattern.

Some it seems are happy to be their own worst enemies and feel the need to create what essentially is not there .
And in the light of current events, are playing straight into the arms of Wild Justice and their cohorts.
 
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lordy

Well-Known Member
Unfortunately it’s not about putting someone right or telling someone they have been doing it wrong all these years. It’s not telling anyone your wrong and I’m right! But in this modern era of accountability it is proving practical ability, understanding, skills and knowledge that will eventually dictate what elements you will be required to adhere to.
 

foxdropper

Well-Known Member
And there lies the problem mate .The more hoops you jump through the more will appear instead of resisting it from the outset .If these courses actually mean something ,I mean really matter ,why are they not law or part of the firearms system and why is it I can go about my life totally without it ,no change ,no drama ,doing basically what these courses cover .
Why is it ,it only applies to deer when we have umpteen gun related field sports .
There is no official training for lamping ,a far higher degree of skill needed and safety paramount ,more so than daylight deer stalking yet anybody with a firearm and permission can do it unchallenged and rightly so .
It’s all to do with money and how much more can be gleaned from the passionate stalker .
On the subject of accountability ,if something should go amis ,do you think you are any more covered than myself .
Some will argue ,yes but I’ve done the course so I am competent ,not so when anything goes wrong and you find your accountability stabs you in the back .ive seen it happen .
Until these courses become legally binding and I can’t stalk freely without them I won’t be falling into the money pit .
 

Tim.243

Well-Known Member
And there lies the problem mate .The more hoops you jump through the more will appear instead of resisting it from the outset .If these courses actually mean something ,I mean really matter ,why are they not law or part of the firearms system and why is it I can go about my life totally without it ,no change ,no drama ,doing basically what these courses cover .
Why is it ,it only applies to deer when we have umpteen gun related field sports .
There is no official training for lamping ,a far higher degree of skill needed and safety paramount ,more so than daylight deer stalking yet anybody with a firearm and permission can do it unchallenged and rightly so .
It’s all to do with money and how much more can be gleaned from the passionate stalker .
On the subject of accountability ,if something should go amis ,do you think you are any more covered than myself .
Some will argue ,yes but I’ve done the course so I am competent ,not so when anything goes wrong and you find your accountability stabs you in the back .ive seen it happen .
Until these courses become legally binding and I can’t stalk freely without them I won’t be falling into the money pit .
Also to add a bit......there will be many a comment when a deer is chipped and runs on with the deer dog trackers who do a very good job BTW....however chip a fox (which does happen ) and I bet there will be zero reaction with all party's

Tim.243
 

Uncle f

Well-Known Member
Ok for those of you who don’t feel training/qualifications are required or just don’t see the need what is your feeling towards a first aid course and qualification?

For me I feel it’s vitally important and I make sure all of my staff are trained every 2 years not because we have to you understand but because I want too.

Just interested to see your opinions?
 

jimbo1984

Well-Known Member
Ok for those of you who don’t feel training/qualifications are required or just don’t see the need what is your feeling towards a first aid course and qualification?

For me I feel it’s vitally important and I make sure all of my staff are trained every 2 years not because we have to you understand but because I want too.

Just interested to see your opinions?
I don’t work for you as far as I’m aware so I’ll pass
 

jimbo1984

Well-Known Member
Ok for those of you who don’t feel training/qualifications are required or just don’t see the need what is your feeling towards a first aid course and qualification?

For me I feel it’s vitally important and I make sure all of my staff are trained every 2 years not because we have to you understand but because I want too.

Just interested to see your opinions?
Out of interest do you like fishing or lamping or pigeon shooting ? Do you need a course for them ? Curious to see if you think we should introduce training for those too .....
 

Uncle f

Well-Known Member
Yep I like all of those and enjoy all (clearly no pigeons presently). In relation to the pigeons and lamping there are no courses/qualifications per say but I’m sure there will be a requirement soon to obtain an FAC/SGC and for me it’s not an issue as I’m not adverse to complying and learning more.

Interesting no answer to the first aid question? With refers to a level 1 and 2 cert apart from the deer related issues it also has a certain amount of safety and muzzle awareness training/assessing. I am a level 1 shotgun coach and i have had self confessed experienced shots turn up for lessons and corporate days and quite honestly sent them home as they were dangerous and unfortunately the police had granted them with the relevant cert. equally though I’ve have experienced shots that are just that and very good and knowledgeable. The same can be said of level 1 and 2.
Plod have no way of knowing how safe/not safe someone is and I appreciate a qualification doesn’t necessarily mean that they will be able to make a definitive decision but it’s a start. As a community we have to start policing ourselves voluntarily otherwise the powers that be will legislate for us and I don’t want that especially with what’s going on right now with regards to General Licences and trophy hunting etc.
 

jimbo1984

Well-Known Member
Yep I like all of those and enjoy all (clearly no pigeons presently). In relation to the pigeons and lamping there are no courses/qualifications per say but I’m sure there will be a requirement soon to obtain an FAC/SGC and for me it’s not an issue as I’m not adverse to complying and learning more.

Interesting no answer to the first aid question? With refers to a level 1 and 2 cert apart from the deer related issues it also has a certain amount of safety and muzzle awareness training/assessing. I am a level 1 shotgun coach and i have had self confessed experienced shots turn up for lessons and corporate days and quite honestly sent them home as they were dangerous and unfortunately the police had granted them with the relevant cert. equally though I’ve have experienced shots that are just that and very good and knowledgeable. The same can be said of level 1 and 2.
Plod have no way of knowing how safe/not safe someone is and I appreciate a qualification doesn’t necessarily mean that they will be able to make a definitive decision but it’s a start. As a community we have to start policing ourselves voluntarily otherwise the powers that be will legislate for us and I don’t want that especially with what’s going on right now with regards to General Licences and trophy hunting etc.
I understand what your saying but but that same token I’ve had lads with Dsc 1+2 etc stalk with me that quite frankly I wouldn’t trust with an airgun ! So if you turned up to a reservoir and asked to fish and I said no because you hadn’t done a course you wouldn’t think that was ridiculous ? It seems the only sport that’s its ok to do that is stalking ? Why not courses to go ferreting etc......
I lived in Canada for a while and did thier hunters exam I’ve nothing against that but Dsc etc are just money making schemes , if it was a safety course that everyone had to do about muzzle awareness etc that’d be fine but I wouldn’t expect people to spend 350 plus to do it !
 

Uncle f

Well-Known Member
To be honest fella I agree 100% and some of the must have qualifications are a money making scheme I’m sure. Levels 1 and 2 points in case, but I do think there’s certain elements that are important for all and these cost money to facilitate for outfitters/ assessment centres etc.
For me I done mine as previously said to learn more and to (selfishly) gain access to more opportunities. I think the first aid and forestry is massively important and costs £90 which I don’t think is excessive and personally I think it should be compulsory for all. Not just relating to Firearm use. How this would be policed and check I really don’t know I think it should be taught in schools also.

Again I done the BDS advanced deer management course for no other reason but to try and learn more and turns out it was a really good course but too much to take in in three days.
Professionally I require tickets and certs for getting onto sites CSCS and doing the works we do IPAF, PASMA, CPCS, RSPH 1-2 there’s loads mate I can’t do what I do and get insurances and onto sites or buy the products etc without them. Again part of this is good training safety related but again to concur with you some are just money making schemes kind of a legal exploitation!!!
 

Bavarianbrit

Well-Known Member
Did the NSCC then left it too long to claim the freeby so did the DSC1 too, I had already done the german jagdschein course of 8 weekends fri evening sat & sun 175 hours and that sorts out the wheat from the chaff. But handling functional firearms has risks, my teacher showed me a hole drilled deep into the wall where a wally on a previous course had slipped a live 7mm round into the classroom for a larf.
Papering up today is going berserk IMO arse covering etc.
I spent 50 years designing cars with only an apprenticeship paper to back me up and that was never asked for as proof BS could have got me through.
 

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