fresh slots
Well-Known Member
Are they as good as I have read? What’s the advantages over tumbling and what models do people on here use?
Ultrasonic cleaners
- Thread starter fresh slots
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It depends on how anal you are about having clean brass, and how much time you want to spend on cleaning.
When I started reloading I used a dry media tumbler which did a good job on the outside of the case, but invariably blocked the primer flash hole and also did not do a good job on the inside of the case.
I then tried ultrasonic cleaning.
It did clean both inside and outside and the primer pockets but the cases were never as clean as the outside of dry tumbled brass.
Also to get even that level of cleanliness took several hours - and most ultrasonic cleaners have timers that limit the run time to around 1 hour max.
In fact I disabled the timer in one Lyman ultrasonic cleaner so that it ran continuously so I could leave the brass in overnight.
I eventually moved to wet tumbling using a cheap E Bay rock/jewellery tumbler and stainless steel pins
This does the job to the standard I want, and although unloading the drum one case at a time and making sure all the pins are out of it isn't lightning fast, I'm more than happy with the appearance of the cases.
The cheapo E Bay tumbler died last week after about 18 months regular use and I have just purchased a new Frankford Arsenal Lite tumbler from a US seller on Amazon for a lot less than they cost here.
It is 110 volt, but that's not a problem for me since I have a transformer in my workshop permanently rigged up for testing 110 volt site equipment
Cheers
Bruce
When I started reloading I used a dry media tumbler which did a good job on the outside of the case, but invariably blocked the primer flash hole and also did not do a good job on the inside of the case.
I then tried ultrasonic cleaning.
It did clean both inside and outside and the primer pockets but the cases were never as clean as the outside of dry tumbled brass.
Also to get even that level of cleanliness took several hours - and most ultrasonic cleaners have timers that limit the run time to around 1 hour max.
In fact I disabled the timer in one Lyman ultrasonic cleaner so that it ran continuously so I could leave the brass in overnight.
I eventually moved to wet tumbling using a cheap E Bay rock/jewellery tumbler and stainless steel pins
This does the job to the standard I want, and although unloading the drum one case at a time and making sure all the pins are out of it isn't lightning fast, I'm more than happy with the appearance of the cases.
The cheapo E Bay tumbler died last week after about 18 months regular use and I have just purchased a new Frankford Arsenal Lite tumbler from a US seller on Amazon for a lot less than they cost here.
It is 110 volt, but that's not a problem for me since I have a transformer in my workshop permanently rigged up for testing 110 volt site equipment
Cheers
Bruce
fresh slots
Well-Known Member
Thanks Bruce, really interesting
I bought one of these back in 2016 specifically for the de-gaus facility and it was cheaper then and the best of the bunch at the price......and I can do bike bits in it when I eventually get my backside in gear and start stripping it down, 
It takes 2 honey jars with just under a level teaspoon of catering citric acid and a drop of Fairy and I normally do around 20 cases in each for 8 minutes at 31 degrees.
I fill the tank with water from the rain butt the day before and then fill the jars from that.....de-gaussing gets rid of the bubbles which reduce the effectiveness.
These were ultrasoniced before being annealed last week...
Fizz.
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It takes 2 honey jars with just under a level teaspoon of catering citric acid and a drop of Fairy and I normally do around 20 cases in each for 8 minutes at 31 degrees.
I fill the tank with water from the rain butt the day before and then fill the jars from that.....de-gaussing gets rid of the bubbles which reduce the effectiveness.
These were ultrasoniced before being annealed last week...
Fizz.
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I bought the 10litre analogue control unit that is similar to one shown on @fizzbangwhallop 's seller's link.
I use it in much the same way as Fizz, with the honey jars and citric acid. The water in the tank came out of the tap...but that came out of our spring! I haven't changed the main tank water in the two or three years I have had it so it is well degassed and still clean. The honey jars I fill with hot water and in the 2 x 6 minute zaps I give it it is still warm. So I don't bother with the built in tank heater unless I am going to be doing a few loads. I give them a shake between the zaps to shift any grot. Tip the jar full of dirty water away. I do a Soda Bicarb rinse to kill the acid but our water is fairly limey so it is probably alkali enough on its own. Hot water rinse, rub and swing around in a towel and onto a baking tray on the night store heater.
The advantage over tying them in sock and chucking them in the washing machine?...No Domestic Strife.
Over a tumbler, especially a dry one? Time, I would say. 12 minutes clean inside and out...I am really surprised that @mealiejimmy 's took so long. Mine is 300Watt heating 240Watt U/S so maybe that accounts for it.
Alan
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I use it in much the same way as Fizz, with the honey jars and citric acid. The water in the tank came out of the tap...but that came out of our spring! I haven't changed the main tank water in the two or three years I have had it so it is well degassed and still clean. The honey jars I fill with hot water and in the 2 x 6 minute zaps I give it it is still warm. So I don't bother with the built in tank heater unless I am going to be doing a few loads. I give them a shake between the zaps to shift any grot. Tip the jar full of dirty water away. I do a Soda Bicarb rinse to kill the acid but our water is fairly limey so it is probably alkali enough on its own. Hot water rinse, rub and swing around in a towel and onto a baking tray on the night store heater.
The advantage over tying them in sock and chucking them in the washing machine?...No Domestic Strife.
Over a tumbler, especially a dry one? Time, I would say. 12 minutes clean inside and out...I am really surprised that @mealiejimmy 's took so long. Mine is 300Watt heating 240Watt U/S so maybe that accounts for it.
Alan
Think you might need a bigger boat Bruce
Correction to my post above.....takes two Asda pickled onion jars!
Correction to my post above.....takes two Asda pickled onion jars!
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I've left cases in my UC for 12 hours and they come out with a pleasing colour case hardened-like finish!
I still find crud in some of the primer pockets so not sure if I need to change cleaning fluid or if this is normal.
K
I still find crud in some of the primer pockets so not sure if I need to change cleaning fluid or if this is normal.
K
After neutralising in soda bicarbonate and rinsing as Alan says, I blow mine out with an airline to get rid of any excess water and this time I noticed that it blew the crud in the primer pocket out.... I’ve only had to pop a K&M into 2 cases out of 106 to remove the remaining crud.
The one thing I didn't run in an otherwise well-appointed services wall channel to my Reloading Den!
K
The occasional crud in the primer pocket is why I found zapping them in two goes with a shake in between was helpful. I also place them carefully head down in the jar so gravity helps...the bubbles may stay stationary but the primer pocket grot falls down.
I put in just enough cases so that they stay upright but can still rotate on their axes. A jar of little Whirling Dervishes!
Alan
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US ought to do the job with plain water, maybe a dash of surfactant, nothing more, if it's powerful enough and running at an appropriate frequency. I've only tried it on a small scale with an unsuitable machine, but have an open mind that using a decent one could be a very good process, so I will be watching with interest. There's no doubt that they can work well. My little one died after only a few hours, so I'm a little sceptical of durability. But it was never said to be an industrial grade machine.
Watching this thread with interest.
I suspect that if you just left cases to soak in suitable concoctions to loosen the muck, shake them up, then a quick swizz afterwards under a hot tap, would deliver acceptable results. Maybe Just shake them up in a milk bottle with some hot water and dishwasher powder then compare. Actually I have tried that and couldn't see any difference. Even tried a nuclear decontamination fluid, decon 90, as well as sea-clean in the US before it died, but seemed no better than just a squirt of dish detergent.
Citric acid, lemon juice, even cheap coca-cola (phosphoric acid) all just take tarnish off the brass, same as vinegar or ketchup does to a copper coin. Cosmetic IMO.
Primer cavities squeaky clean ? If that's your test, OK, US can do that eventually. Or just brush or scrape them out.
Dry tumblers just polish the outside, and rub off enough from the inside. Very shiny outside certainly, anything left on the inside I don't think matters.
Wet tumblers with SS rods or other media, yes, they can potentially get everywhere and do almost surgical cleansing, but I have no experience with that.
Both these two are slightly abrasive processes. US is not.
I do dry-tumble, since I have one, in my own concoction of crushed walnut shell (reptile bedding), plus a little rouge and a squirt of liquid carnauba car wax and they look very pretty afterwards. I suspect it's an unnecessary process, but they do go into the dies looking very clean on the outside. And the dry vibratory tumbler is a very simple thing, not much to go wrong, and no liquid processes, messing about with formulas, drying out afterwards etc. Time doesn't matter, the noisy dusty tumbler is in the garage on a time-switch, 30 minutes is usually enough. Wet processing surely takes longer, with the drying out etc. ?
My little US made a very irritating noise too, my dog couldn't stand it, I don't know if that is normal.
If starting again I'd be looking at the US devices first. They make sense to me, now that you can get plausible looking Chinese ones for much the same price as my Lyman Turbo-Tumbler.
Brass doesn't need to be perfectly clean to work. Unless it's a fetish. But dry tumbling certainly makes it look very nice, on the outside. Maybe use both.
PS: a quick trip through the dry tumbler also removes any case-lube after sizing, so that's a bonus too.
.
Watching this thread with interest.
I suspect that if you just left cases to soak in suitable concoctions to loosen the muck, shake them up, then a quick swizz afterwards under a hot tap, would deliver acceptable results. Maybe Just shake them up in a milk bottle with some hot water and dishwasher powder then compare. Actually I have tried that and couldn't see any difference. Even tried a nuclear decontamination fluid, decon 90, as well as sea-clean in the US before it died, but seemed no better than just a squirt of dish detergent.
Citric acid, lemon juice, even cheap coca-cola (phosphoric acid) all just take tarnish off the brass, same as vinegar or ketchup does to a copper coin. Cosmetic IMO.
Primer cavities squeaky clean ? If that's your test, OK, US can do that eventually. Or just brush or scrape them out.
Dry tumblers just polish the outside, and rub off enough from the inside. Very shiny outside certainly, anything left on the inside I don't think matters.
Wet tumblers with SS rods or other media, yes, they can potentially get everywhere and do almost surgical cleansing, but I have no experience with that.
Both these two are slightly abrasive processes. US is not.
I do dry-tumble, since I have one, in my own concoction of crushed walnut shell (reptile bedding), plus a little rouge and a squirt of liquid carnauba car wax and they look very pretty afterwards. I suspect it's an unnecessary process, but they do go into the dies looking very clean on the outside. And the dry vibratory tumbler is a very simple thing, not much to go wrong, and no liquid processes, messing about with formulas, drying out afterwards etc. Time doesn't matter, the noisy dusty tumbler is in the garage on a time-switch, 30 minutes is usually enough. Wet processing surely takes longer, with the drying out etc. ?
My little US made a very irritating noise too, my dog couldn't stand it, I don't know if that is normal.
If starting again I'd be looking at the US devices first. They make sense to me, now that you can get plausible looking Chinese ones for much the same price as my Lyman Turbo-Tumbler.
Brass doesn't need to be perfectly clean to work. Unless it's a fetish. But dry tumbling certainly makes it look very nice, on the outside. Maybe use both.
PS: a quick trip through the dry tumbler also removes any case-lube after sizing, so that's a bonus too.
.
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Decent USC work well without doubt.
Solution of hot water out of the tap (2 parts) and distilled white vinegar (1 part) and a squirt of dish soap, chuck your cases in to the cleaner but use the basket or whatever method to ensure they are not in contact with the stainless surface that provides the correct frequency (very important)
Then 2 x 8min cycles with the basket being removed and shaken inbetween before being emptied in the sink, quick minute rinse in water then a quick 2 min soak in bicarb solution, swish around in sink and towel dry and then in the oven for 10mins at 110deg cent to boil away any excess water.
Done. It will not be shiny like factory or wet tumbled brass but it will be clean inside and out and the primer pockets will never need to see one of those stupid annoying tools that send me potty.
Heat is important. Helps if your USC has a heater. If not, make sure you use hot water to form your solution.
USC removes lube and will also remove your dog (and me) from the room in which it is operating. Bloody annoying noise they make.
Solution of hot water out of the tap (2 parts) and distilled white vinegar (1 part) and a squirt of dish soap, chuck your cases in to the cleaner but use the basket or whatever method to ensure they are not in contact with the stainless surface that provides the correct frequency (very important)
Then 2 x 8min cycles with the basket being removed and shaken inbetween before being emptied in the sink, quick minute rinse in water then a quick 2 min soak in bicarb solution, swish around in sink and towel dry and then in the oven for 10mins at 110deg cent to boil away any excess water.
Done. It will not be shiny like factory or wet tumbled brass but it will be clean inside and out and the primer pockets will never need to see one of those stupid annoying tools that send me potty.
Heat is important. Helps if your USC has a heater. If not, make sure you use hot water to form your solution.
USC removes lube and will also remove your dog (and me) from the room in which it is operating. Bloody annoying noise they make.
The pickle helps to take off the tarnish/oxide layer so it will also be taking the crud lying on the oxide layer...so not just Cosmetic IMO.
If it just SS media and water in the tumbler it will have a burnishing rather than abrasive action.
Alan
Someone mentioned "squeaky clean" which reminds me:
If you are using a minimum tapper case and 'hot' loads its possible to run into a problem of less than easy extraction, such is the power of UC to remove all naturally occurring/retained lubricant within the brass.
K
If you are using a minimum tapper case and 'hot' loads its possible to run into a problem of less than easy extraction, such is the power of UC to remove all naturally occurring/retained lubricant within the brass.
K
I do mine in a heated James ultra sonic bath. I use a pyrex rectangular dish which fits inside the cleaning bath. Fill bath with warm previously boiled water. Cleaning solution is water, distilled white vinegar and dash of fairy. Warm it up in a microwave. 2x 480 secs does the trick. Separate cases from fluid with sieve, rinse 2 x clean water, drain, rinse distilled water. Then into meths to remove water, drain and dry on tray on log burner/oven or radiator. To polish necks give them a rub with fine wire wool.
D
D
If heat is important, then there must be something else going on rather than just the basic US action, which shouldn't be temperature dependent, I think. I think the surfactant is simply to keep the grot in suspension and diluted amongst the fluid. Perhaps the use of mild acids can help soften the powder residue, as well as remove the tarnish, but I don't know anything about what reactions might be occurring.
FWIW I clean my copper pans the traditional way, with salt and lemon juice, and they are beautiful. Maybe some way of trying that in a wet tumbler, e.g. a slurry of coarse rock salt plus the acid of your choice. Very eco and no expensive steel pins required. Remember, you read it here first ...
Don't be tempted to put e.g. Brasso in a dry tumbler, as some recommend. It's ammonia content is not at-all good for the brass, potentially leading to stress-corrosion cracking. Great for de-coppering barrels in traditional formulations however.
By the way, de-gassing the water is easily done, just boil it for a few minutes then let it cool down to your desired temperature. My little US cleaner did warn against using hot water, so I didn't, it still failed anyway, but it wasn't designed for this job either.
FWIW I clean my copper pans the traditional way, with salt and lemon juice, and they are beautiful. Maybe some way of trying that in a wet tumbler, e.g. a slurry of coarse rock salt plus the acid of your choice. Very eco and no expensive steel pins required. Remember, you read it here first ...
Don't be tempted to put e.g. Brasso in a dry tumbler, as some recommend. It's ammonia content is not at-all good for the brass, potentially leading to stress-corrosion cracking. Great for de-coppering barrels in traditional formulations however.
By the way, de-gassing the water is easily done, just boil it for a few minutes then let it cool down to your desired temperature. My little US cleaner did warn against using hot water, so I didn't, it still failed anyway, but it wasn't designed for this job either.
I remember reading somewhere that citric acid was more effective as a pickle when warm, which is why I use it warm in the U/S cleaner.
I have found empirically that acetic and phosphoric acid seem to work fine at room temperature....at least when they are used to get rid of the limescale in the loo, the citric acid doesn't work very well unless it goes in with warm water...
In that instance care must be taken that the water is not too warm i.e. straight from the kettle. Don't ask me how I know, but you may come and admire our new loo pedestal.
Alan
I have found empirically that acetic and phosphoric acid seem to work fine at room temperature....at least when they are used to get rid of the limescale in the loo, the citric acid doesn't work very well unless it goes in with warm water...
In that instance care must be taken that the water is not too warm i.e. straight from the kettle. Don't ask me how I know, but you may come and admire our new loo pedestal.
Alan
dreddrockz
Active Member
+1 for wet tumbling. Tried dry and ultrasonic but it's 10 x Better. I also bought a 30 quid food dryer off eBay and that dries the brass nicely afterwards
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