Variations that don't get dealt with - inefficiency or conspiracy??

bowji john

Well-Known Member
I've had a variation on for a 9.3 at Devon & Cornwall for about 14 weeks now

Have rung on three occasions but have been given the run around

A well known RFD has told me that this is standard practice when the licensing Dept do not want to issue but are not sure of their grounds for refusal

Apparently their tactic is to push it into the long grass until you start running out of ammo for other calibers you might hold

What they wish to avoid is a refusal in writing which can then be challenged

Has anyone else on here suffered from this practice

If so - please share

Otherwise - any input welcomed

J
 
I have no personal experience but I had heard that D&C have quite a good reputation. Other than this issue, how have they been otherwise? As you suggest, conspiracy is often the least-likely reason...
 
Every other variation I've put in has been resolved in 3 weeks

Other friends of mine have had their variations approved in a similar 3 weeks or less despite their application having been submitted long after mine
 
I am loath to suggest it as I think it is generally best to avoid formalising the relationship; however, perhaps it is time to write to them? Ask them to do one of three things: (a) explain the delay and indicate a date by which this will be dealt with; or (b) issue the variation; or (c) refuse the variation and give reasons in writing.

Alternatively, get BASC or whichever champion of shooters' interests you currently use to contact them on your behalf...?

Annoying, eh, John.
 
Yup - It is Carl

Like you - I'm loath to formalise any issue with them - but it is becoming highly suspicious that every time I ring, the senior FEO that is dealing with my request is either ''on leave'' or ''at a meeting'' but apparently never ''back from leave'' or ''back from meeting'' to make contact

I will try one more time and then ask BASC to make inquiries on my behalf

Disappointing though !
 
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If when I ring they tell me they are busy and it may take I while I tell them I will not send my licence until they are ready to do the variation etc as I stalk/shoot out of my force area.This is fine and they ring me to ask for my licence to be posted so I'm never without it for a long period of time.
Still took 13 weeks for my 1for1 variation but at least I always had my licence with me for 12 weeks:tiphat:
 
They have had my license for 14 weeks now

Fortunately I reload, and my wife also has a ticket for non reloadable ammo (.22LR)

However it is frustrating when I'm getting invitations to foreign shoots and can do nothing about them

I truly suspect that this has nothing to do with pressure of work - but much more to do with a reluctance to issue a ticket for ''big'' calibers

The FEO that rang me 6 weeks ago to interview me indicated that they do not want to issue tickets for such calibers

Strangely he has, as yet, 'failed to submit a report' of the interview and no one knows who it was that rang me ....
 
Carl has it nailed. I would escalate it. I issued a complaint to Avon and S over land approval processes where i had 20+ pieces of land approved with different methods and different forces. Matter was sorted almost immediately and I was granted an open ticket a few weeks later. It should be a proffesional working relationship. They are there to perform a function.
There is a chap on PW looking at a refusal for .243 because they are too busy to process the request.
 
I thought D&C were one of the better forces - I know a friend has a 375 conditioned for AOLQ, not sure how many forces would do that.
 
Red and boar in UK

DG and boar abroad

I have red on my land here at the farm in thick cover and near boggy ground so wanted the heavier caliber to prevent heavy bodied deer from running and being lost or stuck in boggy ground and also to 'punch' through greenery lessening the risk of deflection resulting in injured animal

That pretty much sums up my reasons
 
I am loath to suggest it as I think it is generally best to avoid formalising the relationship; however, perhaps it is time to write to them? Ask them to do one of three things: (a) explain the delay and indicate a date by which this will be dealt with; or (b) issue the variation; or (c) refuse the variation and give reasons in writing.

Alternatively, get BASC or whichever champion of shooters' interests you currently use to contact them on your behalf...?

Annoying, eh, John.

As you suggest Carl, John needs to engage them in written communication. Telephone conversations are never good enough, you need some sort of written record of proceedings even if it is only a dated acknowledgement that it is being deal with.
 
It sometimes amazes me that they can be so picky about calibres. I get that they want you to have suitable calibres for the type of shooting you do, that makes sense. But pretty much every rifle calibre is as deadly as the next. Any centrefire calibre has the ability to kill a human sized animal and bigger and also has the ability to, without a suitable back stop travel vast distances and remain deadly for most of that journey. The safety aspect of firing any size of rifle isn't inherent in the rifle, but in the shooter. So if they think you are safe (and I can only surmise you are because you have other rifles) and you have good reason, then it seems there's no grounds to refuse you.

Unless you are of a mind to withdraw the variation (which it seems you aren't), if it were me, I'd think it was time to ask them to put up or shut up.
 
I suspect withdrawal of the variation is what they are after - and no I'm not going to withdraw it

As for the arguments for the caliber - they were well documented in a summary attached to the application

I started to reiterate those arguments to the FEO when he rang all those weeks ago

He stopped me saying that he'd never fired a rifle in his life so had no idea what I was talking about

He also questioned why folk such as he were being asked to make such judgments of behalf of the the Dept when they (he) clearly had no expertise to call upon
 
I suspect withdrawal of the variation is what they are after - and no I'm not going to withdraw it

As for the arguments for the caliber - they were well documented in a summary attached to the application

I started to reiterate those arguments to the FEO when he rang all those weeks ago

He stopped me saying that he'd never fired a rifle in his life so had no idea what I was talking about

He also questioned why folk such as he were being asked to make such judgments of behalf of the the Dept when they (he) clearly had no expertise to call upon

So you have a situation which is not uncommon where the FEO isn't experienced, doesn't know what to do. He may well prefer it to go away, more than likely he is just putting it off. Its a normal human response. Not ideal, pita for you but is complaining going to help him deal with it or just make the situation worse??

I think you can go to the front of the queue if you can turn these situations into something easy for them to deal with rather than being the hard one in the pile.

I agree with the comments above, you should have written communications not really because you then have an audit trail that helps your complaint, but because you can make your case in a way that survives the phone call. So if the FEO did not get it, then they can at least pick over your case later on, copy bits directly into their forms and go show it to the people who do understand. Email is best, it comes across as less pompous and more immediate. You can leave a message that will be picked up and you can craft your pitch without the FEO interrupting. The you can have a bit of a thread bouncing back and forward. Keep it short and simple, don't assume they can pick out the important bits, just give them the important bits. Don't confuse them

Maybe this is a bit obvious, so apologies about grannies and eggs etc but basically what they need to put in their internal forms are :

what do you want - rifle, cal, ammo, can and permissions

where - everywhere please because I am experienced and therefore get invitations to do stuff all over the place kind of thing

why - it will do x, but importantly why the other things you own are inadequate to perform the same task.

The last bit is really the important bit. Imaging him standing in front of his boss who says "but he has a 308 why isn't it enough". If you can give him that answer then it becomes easy.

Its not ideal, it would be nice if these departments were fully staffed with highly experienced individuals but we have to find ways to make the world work as it is.

If it has been running on for a while then you have the opportunity to email the FEO and tell him you (!) have obviously not explained the need properly so if he can give you an idea of the issues with your request then you can have a stab at giving him some clearer explanations. So he tells you his (his bosses ?) issues and you can then give him the answers. All by email so he doesn't have to remember them.

If all that does not work then at least you have a trail you can use to argue the case in another way.
 
Firstly I would do all correspondence by email quoting your good reason and home office guide lines to your FEO and cc the chief Licencing officer in , phone conversations are useless.
 
If you want to worry them, write to ask them to determine within the next 21 days or otherwise you'll have to appeal on the basis of non-determination (same as a refusal).
 
This is what I've sent

I've attached it partly to gain opinion and partly to help others that might be in the same position

Good morning Xxxxxxxxx

My name is John Xxxxx, my FAC details are as follow

DOB xx/0x/xx
Address xxx xxxxx xxxxxx xxx
Cert No xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Valid from xxxxxxxxx
Valid to xxxxxx

I sent a variation in to your Dept on the 8th January for a 9.3 x 62 rifle, moderator and ammunition

Approximately 6 weeks ago I was contacted by phone by one of your FEO's with regard to my application

During that conversation we went through many of the reasons for my application and it was recognised that most of those points had been covered in an accompanying letter; a copy of which he had to hand.

Your department has been both efficient and helpful on previous variations and I'm surprised that after 14 weeks I have not had any feedback from my request

I would like to know where my application stands and an indication of when I can expect a response

If my application is being rejected I will require the reasons for the rejection in writing on Department headed paper so that I might consider the reasons given and offer further evidence if required

Kind regards

John Xxxxx

PS - I attach an updated shooting resume
 
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