WHO and Government Vaccine Narrative I'm Confused
- Thread starter mchughcb
- Start date
Don't go worrying about what I may or may not like to hear. I prefer people who say how they feel, why beat about the bush?
Still, I'll ask again - what's the difference between a vaccinated immunity and a natural one? I would genuinely like to know.
Theoretically, an overwhelmed NHS. Otherwise probably none.
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
Or better still, take ivermectin and prevent the spread of any Covid virus variant you may come into contact with, thus eliminating that risk for everyone else as well as oneself; extrapolate this safe procedure, and very quickly it is the virus that pegs it, as has been shown where it is deployed. Ivermectin’s advantage is its unimpeachable safety record, and effectiveness; it’s only disadvantage is that big pharma cannot make billions on its back, hence the radio silence treatment for/by those who actually believe the government is acting in the best interests of the individual.
So vaccinating those who are vulnerable and leaving those who can almost certainly deal with it naturally to do so would likely show similar results at far less cost? Hmm... Then there's Freeforester's point above. You can't help but wonder why a perfectly serviceable and proven product has all but vanished whilst the new wonder vaccine has flourished?
Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt for a second that what we're facing is a very serious threat. But where there's a dollar to be made, someone will be in on it. When one of your key advisers has multiple hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of shares in a vaccine company can you truly trust him to be 100% unbiased? Lets be perfectly honest here - I wouldn't trust myself to do that, let alone anyone else. Especially when at the very start he said that this would only be an issue for the vulnerable. He wasn't daft back then but he's even less daft now. He knows which side his bread's buttered, they all do.
Is ivermectin such a wonder drug?
www.isglobal.org
Then was it not reported that the vaccine companies were making it at cost with zero profit and who cares if they are making a profit that’s what business is about. The cost to people’s lives and living is far greater that their profit if any I bet. Why not ask France and Poland as they lockdown for a third time, or Italy already locked down.
Clearly at your age you are less likely to die from covid, so just live in your own bubble of one and you will have a happy life. But your life is only returning to normal because the rest of us are prepared to take the vaccine otherwise the U.K. would be at risk of a third or fourth or fifth lockdown.
Ivermectin and COVID-19: How a Flawed Database Shaped the Pandemic Response of Several Latin-American Countries - Blog - ISGLOBAL
A blog about Global Health. An open space for discussing equitable access to health for everyone, everywhere.
www.isglobal.org
Then was it not reported that the vaccine companies were making it at cost with zero profit and who cares if they are making a profit that’s what business is about. The cost to people’s lives and living is far greater that their profit if any I bet. Why not ask France and Poland as they lockdown for a third time, or Italy already locked down.
Clearly at your age you are less likely to die from covid, so just live in your own bubble of one and you will have a happy life. But your life is only returning to normal because the rest of us are prepared to take the vaccine otherwise the U.K. would be at risk of a third or fourth or fifth lockdown.
palmer_mike
Well-Known Member
1) vaccine immunity, less chance of you spreading the disease and killing people
2) natural immunity, a real chance that you will not realise that you have the disease and passing it on to others who may die.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
I am getting well tired of waiting for my jab over here in denial Germany.
Can one travel from EU into the UK at the moment?
My Dover GP is texting me most days asking me to turn up at the surgery for my jab. My house down there is only 2kms from Eastern Docks and self isolation is no problem for me.
Can one travel from EU into the UK at the moment?
My Dover GP is texting me most days asking me to turn up at the surgery for my jab. My house down there is only 2kms from Eastern Docks and self isolation is no problem for me.
Well a muddy of the waters by obergruppenfuher van der Leyen threatened to ban sending of vaccine to the UK.
But its an own goal as Pfizer have explained to the tantrum thrower important ingredients come from a factory in Yorkshire England.
So if you stop their vaccine we can't make anybody a vaccine.
Why not try this approach Apologies for being slug slow and get Europe vaccinated.
Oh no they can't do that as they can't blame the England anymore .
And yes Martin if you fill a bucket of forms in you can come here depending on restrictions in Bavaria atb
But its an own goal as Pfizer have explained to the tantrum thrower important ingredients come from a factory in Yorkshire England.
So if you stop their vaccine we can't make anybody a vaccine.
Why not try this approach Apologies for being slug slow and get Europe vaccinated.
Oh no they can't do that as they can't blame the England anymore .
And yes Martin if you fill a bucket of forms in you can come here depending on restrictions in Bavaria atb
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
You seem to imply that Ivermectin does not work.Is ivermectin such a wonder drug?
Ivermectin and COVID-19: How a Flawed Database Shaped the Pandemic Response of Several Latin-American Countries - Blog - ISGLOBAL
A blog about Global Health. An open space for discussing equitable access to health for everyone, everywhere.
Then was it not reported that the vaccine companies were making it at cost with zero profit and who cares if they are making a profit that’s what business is about. The cost to people’s lives and living is far greater that their profit if any I bet. Why not ask France and Poland as they lockdown for a third time, or Italy already locked down.
Clearly at your age you are less likely to die from covid, so just live in your own bubble of one and you will have a happy life. But your life is only returning to normal because the rest of us are prepared to take the vaccine otherwise the U.K. would be at risk of a third or fourth or fifth lockdown.
I would contend that there is a far greater body of evidence that demonstrates that when used as recommended by the FLCCC it does work, see #Ivermectin, for the interested.
Much in the same way that despite the ‘reservations‘ expressed about the vaccine by certain eminent, though fast-fading European ‘leaders’, one or two voices in dissent does not change the evidence readily available from multiple analysis and trials conducted all over the planet. Dr Tess Lawrie’s meta-analysis of so many ivermectin trials would tend to confirm, rather than counter this position.
Or does such analysis carry no weight? It’s scientifically observable modes of function - they are somehow inapplicable now?
CarlW
Well-Known Member
You're a Brit. Come home and get the jab, as is your right.
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
It ain’t so easy going the other way, but your government seems to be more ‘relaxed‘ about travel to here than ours to ‘over there’, for the moment, at least. This may change.
Irrespective of whether you think your leader/s is/are doing the right thing by the EU/member state/s right now, I’m not personally convinced that any Western governments right now are wholly acting in the best interests of their peoples.
Health should be apolitical.
Carpe diem.
Bavarianbrit
Well-Known Member
Due to Brexit I am required to have a minimum of six months validity on my UK passport for living in the EU. I sent my passport back to the Durham passport office by registered post last week as is required for anyone living outside of the UK according to the UK Governments website. Two days later I got the confirmation of arrival in Durham, the same evening late pm I received an email from the passport office that it had arrived and will be processed. Two days later another email saying it had been approved and had been posted back to me.
Hats off to UK Ltd on two counts now 1. Vaccines and 2. passport processing.
Although a lot of things in the UK still trouble me I am getting very surprised at how they are getting their act together post Brexit.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
To be honest, I think we Brits will also be better Europeans now we're outside the EU.
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
The problems don’t stem from our relationships with other European countries, but rather the still anti democratic EU institution, which itself is now coming under increasing scrutiny from the remaining players, and seemingly increasingly found to be wanting:
It's a shame that you can't get one of the AZ vaccinations as the German vaccination system seems to have rather a lot of no-shows at the various vaccination centres.... I thought they would have been a bit more proactive in taking anyone off the street who was keen on receiving the jab, but maybe we don't get a full picture in our lovely press!?
My brother has been stuck in Saudi for a year now, his GP has texted to say he can make an appointment for his vaccination, but like you would be required to quarantine for 10 days initially, apparently he can't get a vaccine in Saudi Arabia as he's not a "real" citizen.... The whole system regarding the vaccines is laughable sadly, we're doing well here, but there's too much pettiness to make it a real success internationally.
Lets be totally clear about this. COVID, it's continuation or even it's treatment does not benefit the big pharma companies.
In theory, I'm the one with dollars to be made here. I have shares in AstraZeneca and Pfizer. Both are down over their January 2020 values. COVID has cost them, as the companies providing the vaccines, roughly 10% of their value in just over a year. To put that into perspective, COVID has knocked $20 billion off the value of Pfizer. It's knocked £10bn off the value of AstraZeneca (although the vaccine news did briefly provide some significant gains mid year when coupled with a route out of COVID.) Based on past performance it's also stolen them another 3-10% in potential value because that's what they normally gain per year under normal conditions.
Big pharma, just the same as every other industry wants COVID out the way so they can get people back to work, eliminate costly restrictions, restart rolling out annual vaccinations, and get their sales teams pushing their infinitey more profitable end of life products to hospitals, all of which provide a reliable, long term income stream. Ideally they'd like to maintain their main, immediate and most profitable market of frail, infirm, 70+ year olds in first world countries alive in the process, something which COVID is probably not helping any.
THe COVID vaccines do help them recover some of the massive profit impact that COVID has caused, but trust me, the execs at AZN are not thinking 'Well, lets keep covid about as long as possible so we can continue to rake in them vaccination dollars' and the quarterly earnings calls are bearing this out, not to mention the share price.
Plus of course, the same vested interests with millions of AZN stock probably also have millions of stock in BP (down 40%), or FTSE tracker funds (down 10%) or maybe airlines, retail or events management companies (absolute carnage). The elimination of COVID is almost certainly going to generate far more in gains for those with vested interests in large UK or Global companies (i.e the pool of government advisers and special interest groups defining COVID response) than it's prolongation can generate from any one single company.
It makes a good soundbite. 'Corporate fatcats profiting off the deaths of thousands and working to hide effective treatments'. Provokes outrage, makes sense at first glance. But ultimately? Bollocks.
To your other point though, I'm also uncertain what difference in benefit there is between vaccine derived immunity versus naturally derived immunity. To my knowledge they're similar mechanisms, similar responses and similar methods of immunological memory. Also based on past knowledge of vaccines, its generally the case that naurally acquired immunity is, if anythig, marginally better than vaccine induced immunity because the body 'sees' the true wild type threat in terms of protein conformation and epitopes versus the 'mimic' version presented in the vaccine. That said, there are some advantages to getting vaccinated, even as a massively low risk person (I'm 25, I'm still gonna get it).
These are:
- Risk reduction - if you acquire natural immunity by contracting COVID, there's a risk, albeit a very, very small one that the virus might do you in or have long term adverse influence on quality of life. A low risk, but you'd feel pretty stupid if you did it, rolled snake eyes 10 times in a row and snuffed it. Plus it seems a strange hill to (perhaps literally) die on?
- Certainty - If you opt for naturally immunity, how can you be certain you've actually got it? As you note, you're low risk for COVID, so I doubt you're getting tested for it regularly. Maybe you've seen Wt virus already, maybe you haven't. You probably wouldn't exhibit major symptoms either way, so perhaps those couple of days feeling under the weather over Christmas was COVID. Or was it just a cold? Maybe you're immune and quite entitled to visit Granny in her care home or visit Europe, maybe you're not. At least if you get the vaccine it eliminates that uncertainty.
- Short term reduction in spread - Long term, if you get COVID, recover and then have immunity, you have the same, low infection risk as those vaccinated. Same response after all. But what about in the meantime? As I said above, you'll only know if you're actually immune if you get tested for COVID antibodies, it throws a positive and it's not a false positive. Or of course, if you get the vaccine. At least if you get vaccinated, you know that you're immediately contributing to herd immunity and whilst you may still be able to spread the virus, the overall population is less permissive to that spread because it's a lot quicker to provide vaccinations to everyone than to faff about waiting weeks or months with everyone hiding inside for you and every other 18-50 year old to eventually see the Wt variant, fight it off an get your immunity that way.
- Freedom - I can certainly forsee a future where certain activities will require proof of vaccination. I'm idealogically opposed to this, but a lot of the country isn't, and this is a democracy. Vaccine passports for travel (already proposed by the US), vaccine passports to work in the office (been polled by the FT last week with 70%+ approval from employers), vaccine passport for clubs, sport events and other mass gatherings (already being used in Europe in conjunction with rapid covid testing). You may derive little direct beneft from a vaccine, especially if you really do have immunity from Wt virus exposure, but the indirect benenfts in being able to live your life as you wish, travelling and working freely, surely have benefits in and of themselves?
Freeforester
Well-Known Member
Speaking of the matter of money:
ISTR was there not also a mention of the advantage of a (most very recent) negative test as being equally acceptable in many quarters to permit eg travel, or entry into events?
ISTR was there not also a mention of the advantage of a (most very recent) negative test as being equally acceptable in many quarters to permit eg travel, or entry into events?
As far as I can tell, the 'one or two voices in dissent' are the proponents of the stuff, rather than those who have reservations.
