tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
The Telegraph used to report the scores not so long ago!
Women in Shooting
- Thread starter Conor O'Gorman
- Start date
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
And in Clay shooting Amber Hills
Shooting World Cup: Amber Hill wins silver to become most successful Briton in ISSF World Cup events
Amber Hill becomes the most successful Briton in ISSF World Cup competitions after winning silver at the meeting in Changwon, South Korea.
www.bbc.co.uk
devon deer stalker
Well-Known Member
It was to get a woman's perspective on the topic, never mind.I believe the owners are on here. And unlike many male deer stalkers, they don't seem to make such a fuss and make a bloody argument out of nothing on social media. Which again at the moment seems to be the case on this thread
I see some are digging up issues non related to this post again. They should get a job digging up roads. They seem to be constantly being dug up.
For what it’s worth I’ve had the privilege to lay my sorry butt spine alongside quite a few women attending NRA “Open Days”. With very few exceptions I’ve found that even after my less than consummate coaching the ladies in question exhibit a very real sense of achievement and warm to the discipline. In this case Sporting Rifle.
Three things are very evident to the person coaching and spectators:
1. Female’s listen and act accordingly upon instruction.
2. Female’s don’t bring machismo baggage to the firing point that precludes accepting well-intended guidance. (Handbags are of course permitted but not as a front rest!)
3. Possibly because of one or both above, Females tend to be better shots than men.
I’m all for there being more female shooters so I’ll not condemn BASC’s efforts in this regard.
Such a pity there are so few schools that promote target shooting in the 21st Century.
K
Three things are very evident to the person coaching and spectators:
1. Female’s listen and act accordingly upon instruction.
2. Female’s don’t bring machismo baggage to the firing point that precludes accepting well-intended guidance. (Handbags are of course permitted but not as a front rest!)
3. Possibly because of one or both above, Females tend to be better shots than men.
I’m all for there being more female shooters so I’ll not condemn BASC’s efforts in this regard.
Such a pity there are so few schools that promote target shooting in the 21st Century.
K
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
This is where the effort needs to be directed. School kids make great shots
Dunwaters
Well-Known Member
And clearly you haven’t read mine.
No one is looking for more certification, what is being promoted is increased participation primarily by women, but I’m sure anyone else will be equally welcome.
Certificate numbers are an indicator of active participation and commitment, as such they are important indicators of numbers involved.
Participation in the program will be optional, both you and your family will be free to exercise your option to opt out, so why not just do that?
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
Notwithstanding the obvious 'propaganda', influence in these two books - they make for an interesting read.
Girl_with_a_gun
Well-Known Member
I considered whether I could be bothered to write a reply to this thread, but decided one female comment in 5 pages was probably not representational!
Well done BASC and thank you Conor. The new website looks clear and signposts well. Using Women rather than Ladies does, in my head, open up to different demographics. Despite being far from a Lady, I have recently got over myself and joined the Ladies Stalking on FB, as I think it is important to help with being a non-judgemental mentor. I see many of you from SD on there, and thank you for a lot of really generous assistance. But, it's not even touching the lives of most women. Even within the military, where women fire rifles as a work activity, the overwhelming reaction is that stalking / game shooting isn't "female". This is programmed from a young age, and unless women are lucky enough to have a friend / partner / parent who introduces them into the sport, the likelihood is that the hideous toy industry and increasingly polarised SM-driven social conventions on what is acceptable male / female activity, will have delineated them into a pink plastic world of service (whilst the brothers have fun with nerf guns then air rifles and are primed to enter the shooting world).
Shrink It And Pink It has traditionally been an industry standard. In my younger days, I was offered alternate pistol and rifle options to the blokes, with smaller calibres "because I'm a wee weak woman". They were poor options. I took things into my own hands and made changes like a front pistol grip and a cheek raise / slim pistol grips. This was enabling, and meant being able to fire 7.62 / 9mm with no issues, rather than being disadvantaged compared to the lads - all of a sudden it was a kit issue not a female issue. Perhaps this is one of the ways where BASC might come in: offering demo rifles and shotguns so that women start with appropriately sized kit (it's about the dimensions to allow the marksmanship principles: doesn't need to be lightweight (most women are really happy with any calibres once the stock fits and it has a decent balance point)). The fact we now have off the shelf stocks with adjustable butt and cheek pieces is down to a lot of quiet and hard work over the years to get manufacturers to see how they can increase all their sales by taking women into account, including non-standard men! It means there is no excuse for being disadvantaged or put off due to poorly sized rifles / shotguns.
It is more difficult to become something if you never see an example and you don't have role models who look like you do. That is a well-researched effect. For all of us, increasing any and all shooters should be embraced and supported - the more of us there are, the harder we will be to shut down. I don't claim to represent all women, but I have spent decades mentoring and helping my fellow females to see that shooting is normal for women, so possibly do have a fairly good handle on it. But this is a multi-faceted issue. You would not believe how many women are scared of the dark for instance. Next few series you watch on telly, just have a look at it with fresh eyes as it's always the woman who ends up dead and naked, attacked in the gloaming. It might not even register as a bloke, but it has a cumulative knock-on effect and has put off many friends who don't feel comfortable alone in a wood. My argument has always been that a .308 between the eyes would slow any potential attacker down!
When you are part of the "in crowd" it is very difficult to see how hard it is to actually break into that crowd. So, although the opportunities look equal, they are far from being so. Examples from female mates of why they can't take up opportunities to try stalking: childcare; cooking dinner; running kids to clubs; sorting the dogs out - strangely my male mates regularly have a laugh about how they've left their wives doing those jobs and do manage to come out... But, even within the arguments on here, I see lots of goodwill and I am truly grateful to be in a world where that goodwill is normal.
Again, well done BASC for being a small part of the solution and adding to, not dismissing, all the other innovations that mean more people are being given opportunities to be introduced to shooting. Vive La Revolution!
Well done BASC and thank you Conor. The new website looks clear and signposts well. Using Women rather than Ladies does, in my head, open up to different demographics. Despite being far from a Lady, I have recently got over myself and joined the Ladies Stalking on FB, as I think it is important to help with being a non-judgemental mentor. I see many of you from SD on there, and thank you for a lot of really generous assistance. But, it's not even touching the lives of most women. Even within the military, where women fire rifles as a work activity, the overwhelming reaction is that stalking / game shooting isn't "female". This is programmed from a young age, and unless women are lucky enough to have a friend / partner / parent who introduces them into the sport, the likelihood is that the hideous toy industry and increasingly polarised SM-driven social conventions on what is acceptable male / female activity, will have delineated them into a pink plastic world of service (whilst the brothers have fun with nerf guns then air rifles and are primed to enter the shooting world).
Shrink It And Pink It has traditionally been an industry standard. In my younger days, I was offered alternate pistol and rifle options to the blokes, with smaller calibres "because I'm a wee weak woman". They were poor options. I took things into my own hands and made changes like a front pistol grip and a cheek raise / slim pistol grips. This was enabling, and meant being able to fire 7.62 / 9mm with no issues, rather than being disadvantaged compared to the lads - all of a sudden it was a kit issue not a female issue. Perhaps this is one of the ways where BASC might come in: offering demo rifles and shotguns so that women start with appropriately sized kit (it's about the dimensions to allow the marksmanship principles: doesn't need to be lightweight (most women are really happy with any calibres once the stock fits and it has a decent balance point)). The fact we now have off the shelf stocks with adjustable butt and cheek pieces is down to a lot of quiet and hard work over the years to get manufacturers to see how they can increase all their sales by taking women into account, including non-standard men! It means there is no excuse for being disadvantaged or put off due to poorly sized rifles / shotguns.
It is more difficult to become something if you never see an example and you don't have role models who look like you do. That is a well-researched effect. For all of us, increasing any and all shooters should be embraced and supported - the more of us there are, the harder we will be to shut down. I don't claim to represent all women, but I have spent decades mentoring and helping my fellow females to see that shooting is normal for women, so possibly do have a fairly good handle on it. But this is a multi-faceted issue. You would not believe how many women are scared of the dark for instance. Next few series you watch on telly, just have a look at it with fresh eyes as it's always the woman who ends up dead and naked, attacked in the gloaming. It might not even register as a bloke, but it has a cumulative knock-on effect and has put off many friends who don't feel comfortable alone in a wood. My argument has always been that a .308 between the eyes would slow any potential attacker down!
When you are part of the "in crowd" it is very difficult to see how hard it is to actually break into that crowd. So, although the opportunities look equal, they are far from being so. Examples from female mates of why they can't take up opportunities to try stalking: childcare; cooking dinner; running kids to clubs; sorting the dogs out - strangely my male mates regularly have a laugh about how they've left their wives doing those jobs and do manage to come out... But, even within the arguments on here, I see lots of goodwill and I am truly grateful to be in a world where that goodwill is normal.
Again, well done BASC for being a small part of the solution and adding to, not dismissing, all the other innovations that mean more people are being given opportunities to be introduced to shooting. Vive La Revolution!
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
You misread my last again. If you can find a way to an equal outcome without removing exemptions when the outcome is an increase in certificate numbers then fill your boots! Perhaps BASC should politely ask the CPSA to provide numbers of females shooting as that would be a better indicator than certificate numbers. I refused to take part in the HO survey as it meant nothing to me and didn’t make granting my certificates any quicker!
As far as I am aware I am a number but recorded in the no response column!
It’s DEI rearing its head unnecessarily and is of no benefit to most shooters but holds the risk of giving civil servants ideas about removing exemptions from us!
There is quite a bit of promotion amongst females and ethnic groups, if you do t believe me just go online!
BASC would possibly be better looking at maintaining participation of members and encouraging younger shots regardless of their identity!
But hey don’t let a bit of common sense get in the way of some virtue signaling and bandwagon jumping!
Must go there’s some paint drying I need to watch!
Stalker62
Well-Known Member
You make some very valid, and very powerful points.
My Father (a man of his time), did not know where the kitchen was. It was where the smell of food came from. He was (by necessity) an absent Father when it came to raising the children, (no not Prison, but Military and oft abroad).
My generation knew where the kitchen was. It was where you passed through to get to the dinning room table. I am not qualified to say anything about parenting - I long ago decided I would not make a good parent - it was a kindness to the children I never had.
The generation I have 'inherited', know where the kitchen is. My 'son' and my 'son-in-law' share the cooking with their partners. Point of fact, they do the 'heavy lifting' when it comes to meal preparation. They also, (as far as I can make out), lean in when it comes to parenting. They put me, and my generation, very much in the shade.
Their children will (I hope) be better than them. It's evolution. It's progress. It's slow, but it's happening.
All of my 'Clan' are welcome to join me on the range, on the Farm, on the Shoot and on the Hill. I will relish the day and I will not care a jot if it is a Grandson, Granddaughter or anything in between.
Properly worth repeating
K
Actually, transgenderism is a mental illness. Has been defined that for the last 60+ years (gender dysmorphia).
But that's the rub; when you roll it all up in one acronym, you begin to conflate the two (homosexuality and transgenderism) and therein lies the half truths that get told, where one point applies to one condition, but not the other.
But that's the rub; when you roll it all up in one acronym, you begin to conflate the two (homosexuality and transgenderism) and therein lies the half truths that get told, where one point applies to one condition, but not the other.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
I think cert stats were just a reference point for the article shared in the OP and indeed that is only Home Office stats for England and Wales. Scotland and NI do not publish gender specific data on gun certification. As people have pointed out the percentage of women involved in shooting may well be higher than 6% but we actually don't really know so that is perhaps something to look into. Around 7% of BASC members are women which has been the case since 2016. Nobody is forcing licenses on anyone. The OP was pointing to a BASC article on our work hosting events to encourage more women into shooting and so are many others. Hope that helps explain things.
Conor O'Gorman
Well-Known Member
Well, I certainly am glad you bothered, I think that post puts things in perspective and I will relate the following point back to relevant colleagues at BASC: "Perhaps this is one of the ways where BASC might come in: offering demo rifles and shotguns so that women start with appropriately sized kit (it's about the dimensions to allow the marksmanship principles: doesn't need to be lightweight (most women are really happy with any calibres once the stock fits and it has a decent balance point)). The fact we now have off the shelf stocks with adjustable butt and cheek pieces is down to a lot of quiet and hard work over the years to get manufacturers to see how they can increase all their sales by taking women into account, including non-standard men! It means there is no excuse for being disadvantaged or put off due to poorly sized rifles / shotguns."
doric_prince
Well-Known Member
Here here. Best post on this thread, by far.
as a father of a 10y old girl I couldn’t agree more on you’re points about role models.
My fiancé (f) has this past season shot a few drives on my peg at one of my sindicate shoots. as someone who is driven, independent and locks horns with the biggest male bulls (in the work environment) I was surprised how nervous she was about attending as The only female at times at the shoot, if not the only one, one of only couple of women there. I do think if more women were visible in the sport more would join.
without going full / turbo woke; diversity is a good thing and is one less stick for the antis to wield.
tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
Provided any effort expended is used to promote on merit rather than singling out because of gender then it’s fine!
I can remember the Training Battalion shooting team being formed only by the shots in remedial training as it was held that they would benefit more from the extra coaching and range time than the rest of us who were average or above and had therefore less need of the extra training. You may think that put our shooting team at a disadvantage but they came back with a lorry full of trophies both team and individual which shows that you need to trust the trainers to do it properly!
I can remember the Training Battalion shooting team being formed only by the shots in remedial training as it was held that they would benefit more from the extra coaching and range time than the rest of us who were average or above and had therefore less need of the extra training. You may think that put our shooting team at a disadvantage but they came back with a lorry full of trophies both team and individual which shows that you need to trust the trainers to do it properly!
ShootyBang
Well-Known Member
It is far, far bigger than that. If 50% of the *voting* population are unfamiliar with firearms, hostile to blokish gun culture, and generally led to be afraid of anything to do with firearms, what is the likelihood you get favourable legislation on firearms issues? Or positive change in government policy, police enforcement, etc? Look past the end of your nose here: it is in all of our collective interests to have more women in shooting. Since BASC are the most significant representative body on shooting issues--as far as police and government are concerned, this is absolutely the case--it is their job to think about the sport & the community beyond parochial interests and many election cycles into the future. I cannot see how having more women hurts the rest of our position in shooting?
I don't get the angst here.
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tim@tcs
Well-Known Member
Agree in the main however the sole metric is certificate numbers not an actual survey which would evidence the true data hopefully!
We all seem to agree that clay shooting attracts the most non white males so perhaps BASC should approach CPSA to ask its member clubs for figures and then ask all its own members for real figures of who uses their weapons in their social circle!
Any spending of money should be tempered by the potential outcomes one of which could be removal of exemption for non certified persons to shoot!
Being careful what you wish for is the theme!
If I was funding this in any way I would hope that more research into younger shooters would be done
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