If tipping makes you break into a sweat, brings a tear to the eye and causes you a s!eepless night then you have probably given me just about enough.
Tipping
- Thread starter tusker
- Start date
But surely those sort of services are readily quantifiable (as you have done here) and are easy to account and bill for. Why not specify them up front as extras to be paid for as required or used? Rather than introducing the awkward embarrassment of asking your client to be both buyer and seller and expecting them to assess what extra time needs to be paid for at whatever rate. Especially if you are disgruntled at the resulting inadequate payment that they offer.
Alan
I took people on dive holidays for many years to Egypt, some was daily diving some liver board, The crews do not earn very much like the hotel staff etc,
I used to collect £20.00 or the equivalent in LE off each person and I put my twenty in as well then cash it up and give it to the captain in front of the crew. The dive guide would join us for a nice meal which we all chipped in with his or her share.
In my time as a guide/instructor I was taken for nice end of trip meals, envelopes were left at the centre with note of thanks and some cash as often I would be out diving the next day when they left.
Tip what you think is fair and what you can afford.......
Tim.243
I used to collect £20.00 or the equivalent in LE off each person and I put my twenty in as well then cash it up and give it to the captain in front of the crew. The dive guide would join us for a nice meal which we all chipped in with his or her share.
In my time as a guide/instructor I was taken for nice end of trip meals, envelopes were left at the centre with note of thanks and some cash as often I would be out diving the next day when they left.
Tip what you think is fair and what you can afford.......
Tim.243
Taff it's not about if they don't tip they get crap service. Or expecting extra for doing the job you've been paid for. No one expects a tip for that. It's about doing over and above...involving him in extra effort or extra time or extra cost...what's been paid for.
Like the postman waiting ten minutes for the elderly householder to answer the door instead of waiting two and putting the delivery card through the door. He's not paid to do that...but he does. And at the end of the year, deservedly, he get's a tip.
Like the postman waiting ten minutes for the elderly householder to answer the door instead of waiting two and putting the delivery card through the door. He's not paid to do that...but he does. And at the end of the year, deservedly, he get's a tip.
I agree Alantoo. But in the real world they, the customers, woudn't pay it they'd take their business elsewhere and the people that you are contracted to do the "job" for wouldn't pass it on. They, the customers, would simply take their business elsewhere to where the practices you righlty abhor continue. Because the adverised price was cheaper. That's the harsh reality.
You know you get clients (not where I work) who have been told up front before they book that there is, in some places, an additional ONE EURO baggage handling charge per item of baggage payable in resort in cash...and still try to avoid paying it. And when it then gets left by the porters in the hotel who's the poor sod that then gets asked to go and fetch it "Because the porters must have overlooked it." Guess!
That's handled by the observation that the porters must have overlooked it because if the client has indeed left the Euro or whatever with it then it should have been collected. But that, not to worry, you'll call the porters over, now, and let them know. Usual response is a red face and and a mumbled "Oh don't worry them they must be busy, I'll send my husband to get it" from said client.
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Vipa
Well-Known Member
The whole tipping thing can create stress for clients too.. I was out once, quite a few years ago, I had paid quite a bit for the day out and had factored in enough to buy a carcase and to buy lunch for the 2 of us and to offer something of a gratuity at the end of the day but funds were finite.
I remember the guy, after we grassed 2 beasts, was going way over the top.. Really putting himself out and wanting to get more in front of me and I found myself getting really stressed out wishing he would just stop! All I could think about was.. Oh CRAP... I can't afford this!
So, it works both ways... At least with an upfront transparent total price, there is no embarrassment, no stress, no confusion etc..
The issue is.. I don't have a problem bunging a guide 10 or 20 quid for a good day out but it appears from reading on here, that is woefully inadequate and at that point, the tip, far from being a tip of the hat and a thank you, becomes a major expense which needs to be clarified up front..
As I have already stated, tip expectation ends up coming from the wealthy clients.
I remember the guy, after we grassed 2 beasts, was going way over the top.. Really putting himself out and wanting to get more in front of me and I found myself getting really stressed out wishing he would just stop! All I could think about was.. Oh CRAP... I can't afford this!
So, it works both ways... At least with an upfront transparent total price, there is no embarrassment, no stress, no confusion etc..
The issue is.. I don't have a problem bunging a guide 10 or 20 quid for a good day out but it appears from reading on here, that is woefully inadequate and at that point, the tip, far from being a tip of the hat and a thank you, becomes a major expense which needs to be clarified up front..
As I have already stated, tip expectation ends up coming from the wealthy clients.
paul o'
Well-Known Member
Tips hmm that old chestnut, I give them freely if one is expected it starts with this ! my tip is don't expect a tip ? its your choice to do the job you do before you go out the fee has been set weeks before ? , ahh the cherry old 
postman they get paid for a shift like most of us ? do ya job get paid a rate if you don't like
change it ??
A big But IS this,
If you have been treated well and the guy go's over the top then yup fair play add to his pot and I do
postman they get paid for a shift like most of us ? do ya job get paid a rate if you don't likechange it ??
A big But IS this,
If you have been treated well and the guy go's over the top then yup fair play add to his pot and I do
Just to confound the issue... How about comparing it to the world of livestock farming, where it's the customer (ie, the buyer) who gets a tip? Not a huge sum, but maybe £10 back as "luck" for each £1,000 he's spent.
On this basis, the professional stalker ought to be giving a bit back to the client as a thank you for booking a day with him, and supporting his business.
On this basis, the professional stalker ought to be giving a bit back to the client as a thank you for booking a day with him, and supporting his business.
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jamross65
Well-Known Member
4 German guests over for stags on a friends ground. Originally booked to stalk 2 guests out with 1 guide (2:1). Arrangements were made to provide a guide each to increase their chances of success, at no extra costs to the guests. Between the 4 of them they shot 4 stags over the 3 days, unfortunately the rut wasn't really on and the deer weren't playing ball. That's stalking. However, as the guests were there for another day after the 3 they had booked and paid for, a FREE morning was offered the next day. Guided for 3hrs in the hope the one guest who so far hadn't shot one got some luck. He didn't.
So break that down. The stags shot were probably 4 less than realistically expected. But that's stalking and not down to lack of effort. An extra morning was given at no extra cost. But ended without success.
To those who seem to have an issue with tipping, what would you suggest as a sign of your appreciation for that effort over the 3 days? What ultimately was offered by the guests is irrelevant, it was what THEY thought it was worth. Perhaps they offered nothing. What would you guys say should have been offered if anything at all?
I'm curious to hear what those that have the issue about this would feel was appropriate.
So break that down. The stags shot were probably 4 less than realistically expected. But that's stalking and not down to lack of effort. An extra morning was given at no extra cost. But ended without success.
To those who seem to have an issue with tipping, what would you suggest as a sign of your appreciation for that effort over the 3 days? What ultimately was offered by the guests is irrelevant, it was what THEY thought it was worth. Perhaps they offered nothing. What would you guys say should have been offered if anything at all?
I'm curious to hear what those that have the issue about this would feel was appropriate.
Uncalled for comment - you have no idea of my (or most other people on here's) financial circumstances. All I ask is transparency, and if prices go up 10% or whatever and tipping disappears in the shooting, catering and other industries then I can cope with that. Just so long as that 10% goes onto the wages of those doing the graft.
I don't hire a builder and give him a tip, I don't get my car service and give a tip, I don't get tips for producing the work I am engaged tp produce. Time for the world to move out of the dark ages
Bill Bartlett
Well-Known Member
Ten pound a day and a stag taken as well! Not only is that mean but quite insulting. Tipping is part and parcel of a day on the hill. I was getting more than that per stag twenty years ago!
jamross65
Well-Known Member
I hope you can see from my posts I don't have an issue either way, but I can't agree with what you use here as an analogy.
A building job is almost an objective issue. A job MUST be seen to have been done. You are paying to have a house built, no debate. No house, no payment.
A days stalking however could be considered a subjective issue. You pay for a days stalking or an outing fee. NOWHERE in the contract does it guarantee that a beast WILL be shot. And for me there lies the difference.
I know that subjective/objective isn't the best example but it's all that comes to mind just now to try and highlight the difference!
Analogies of postmen delivering letters (he has to, it's the end result of his job) and not being tipped is not relevant. There are good and bad posties, some may get the wrong address or take twice as long to deliver letters. BUT, when you get home you'll still have your mail waiting for you.
A stalker or gillie on a river is taking you out to TRY and get you a beast or a fish. NOT guarantee one. You will know yourself if you are out with a guide who is knowledgable and putting in the effort.
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My bottom line is I don't tip the man that "sets" the price for the job. But I will, if it's "over and above", tip the man that gets sent to actually do the job. And that's about my last word on the matter.
It strikes me that it is not an issue of tipping or not here. But of the curious nature of the business negotiations that were entered into.
Why were the two extra guides not charged for? Why was the extra morning not charged for? If they were offered and provided at an agreed no extra cost, why would you be surprised if you received no extra payment?
Why would anyone running a business rely on chance rather than negotiation to establish a fair price?
Vipas point regarding transparency removes all the hassle. State your price up front and and expect no less.
Alan
jamross65
Well-Known Member
What on earth are you talking about????
The extra guides were provided at the discretion of the MAIN guide, despite arrangements being agreed upon with the sporing agent the guests booked through. The contract was agreed upon, four guests for 3 days stalking 2:1. Then the MAIN guide decided to take the hit on the costs and provide an extra 2 guides to INCREASE the chances of success (obviously) as conditions weren't great and future business is built on reputation. How could the guests be charged EXTRA when they didn't ask for extra guides?
No-one said they were surprised no extra payment was received. You haven't read my post properly because I never said whether extra was given in the form of a tip or not. The whole point of that example was to ask folk who seem to think the world of tipping is a black one, what that was worth to the guests? As apparently tipping spoils guests days who don't seem to know what is appropriate for a tip. Despite some saying they don't EXPECT anything????
So, here's a thought, looking at things from another angle - ie. not the stalker/guest. Let's say a ghillie/guide or whatever is paid a flat wage for their job that is just about a living wage. He supplements this with his tips. Generally speaking, the better he does his job, the bigger the tips tend to be. So his employer wins all ways. He pays as little as he can and, through tips, ensures that his employee is working at his best.
There is a bit of truth in that.
jamross65
Well-Known Member
LOL, no probs Alan...... I maybe didn't put it across well. I meant the deal was signed and sealed but the guide decided at his own expense to provide extra guides to maximise the chance of success. The guests didn't know that would happen until the day they arrived and needless to say were delighted.....
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