Firearms licence format (physical)

[Leadwasp]

getting back on track about a card FAC system..........

How would a face to face sale between non terminal-owning private individuals work? How would you 'lend' a shotgun to someone for more than 72 hrs?

Who will pay for the system? It can only be paid for, ultimately, by us the certificate holders, OR (and at a loss) the Government. In which case it will be poorly spec'd, overly ambitious, late, over budget, built by committee to the point where it is functionally useless and technologically obsolete. Such is the track record of Government IT projects. There are about 150,000 firearms holders in England and Wales and 580,000 shotgun holders to fund this ongoing. 3400 odd RFD's.

 

[Leadwasp]

thanks for the 'drivel' remark - very mature...........you have to remember that last time the ID card was put forward in the UK it was compulsory, the individual had to maintain it and was responsible to do so and penalties for failure were attached!

You're arguing for a non-compulsory ID card as an extra to other forms of ID then?

I didn't think I needed a tin hat until someone started throwing toys.............

 

[Rasputin]

thanks for the 'drivel' remark - very mature...........you have to remember that last time the ID card was put forward in the UK it was compulsory, the individual had to maintain it and was responsible to do so and penalties for failure were attached!

You're arguing for a non-compulsory ID card as an extra to other forms of ID then?

I didn't think I needed a tin hat until someone started throwing toys.............

At no point did anyone mention compulsory you just wrongly assumed and came up with a bit of a weak point then linked it to the government staling your identity etc which in truth they already have as much as they need anyway, even more so with FAC holders. If you hold a card such as your driving license which most do then why not bolt on things like FAC etc seen as you have to carry your card regardless may as well have one that scans and does it all. Given the licensing issues at the moment it would make things such as renewals etc x100 easier.

 

[DAVIDAIKEN]

It's not the 'putting information on a card' it's how to get it read! I mean, most police forces / council authorities don't own a cat / dog chip reader. Imagine every person who needed to read your FAC SGC needing a reader of some sort!

 

[Leadwasp]

At no point did anyone mention compulsory you just wrongly assumed and came up with a bit of a weak point then linked it to the government staling your identity etc which in truth they already have as much as they need anyway, even more so with FAC holders. If you hold a card such as your driving license which most do then why not bolt on things like FAC etc seen as you have to carry your card regardless may as well have one that scans and does it all. Given the licensing issues at the moment it would make things such as renewals etc x100 easier.

Well identity documentation is compulsory in all but 12 of the EU states AND given that an ID system that people don't have to use is unworkable and pointless I'd say I made a fair assumption. Nobody said anything about identity theft - which incidentally is a completely different issue.

Now it was you that had to drop the tone by attacking with a remark like 'drivel' rather than being able to be anything other than supercilious. If you can't play nicely toddle off and gaze in awe at your mystifyingly magical panacea that is the driving license. I'm sure it will give you many hours of comfort. If you'd like to join a polite debate then I'm all ears.

 

[Rasputin]

Well identity documentation is compulsory in all but 12 of the EU states AND given that an ID system that people don't have to use is unworkable and pointless I'd say I made a fair assumption. Nobody said anything about identity theft - which incidentally is a completely different issue.

Now it was you that had to drop the tone by attacking with a remark like 'drivel' rather than being able to be anything other than supercilious. If you can't play nicely toddle off and gaze in awe at your mystifyingly magical panacea that is the driving license. I'm sure it will give you many hours of comfort. If you'd like to join a polite debate then I'm all ears.

You know what they say about assumptions......

An ID system that people dont have to use is pointless? You have completely missed the plot and the content of the original post in the thread which was linking already existing facets of life to ID you already use such as a driving license. I specifically mentioned ID theft in my posts and you talked about the Government accessing your identity or some other dross.

 

[bewsher500]

Stop carrying it around unless you are buying and it will last longer!
if they can't get a national database you don't hold your breath for an updatable card based system!

 

[Miki]

getting back on track about a card FAC system..........

How would a face to face sale between non terminal-owning private individuals work? How would you 'lend' a shotgun to someone for more than 72 hrs?

Who will pay for the system? It can only be paid for, ultimately, by us the certificate holders, OR (and at a loss) the Government. In which case it will be poorly spec'd, overly ambitious, late, over budget, built by committee to the point where it is functionally useless and technologically obsolete. Such is the track record of Government IT projects. There are about 150,000 firearms holders in England and Wales and 580,000 shotgun holders to fund this ongoing. 3400 odd RFD's.

That is a good point, I guess you would need to fill in a down-ladoable form and send it in with the gun details and the SGC/FAC holders details. Which as long as you did this within 72hrs of the 'loan' taking place/ceasing this should be acceptable (i'm guessing here).

My vision wouldf have the Police/government would pay for it as it does offer them a reduction in costs. Dealers could install the card readers (if they wanted) or simply/manually enter the number on your card into the system/web-site/portal which would bring up your details (mug-shot, details, certificates, entitlememts etc). The card reader only offers an element of automation.
The 'card' only has a your unique number and a few details on it. The real info is on the FELD's database. You don't need a national system to start with as each division can have it's own database (I assume ?). Most of the RFD's have an electronic register anyway so they are already 1/2 way there.

With the advances of contactless cards, the system could offer even more advantages, for example when you walk through the door of the RFD's premises he would know who you are, you walk up to the till and there is a picture of you on his screen, he already knows your name ....

 

[25 Sharps]

That is a good point, I guess you would need to fill in a down-ladoable form and send it in with the gun details and the SGC/FAC holders details. Which as long as you did this within 72hrs of the 'loan' taking place/ceasing this should be acceptable (i'm guessing here).

My vision wouldf have the Police/government would pay for it as it does offer them a reduction in costs. Dealers could install the card readers (if they wanted) or simply/manually enter the number on your card into the system/web-site/portal which would bring up your details (mug-shot, details, certificates, entitlememts etc). The card reader only offers an element of automation.
The 'card' only has a your unique number and a few details on it. The real info is on the FELD's database. You don't need a national system to start with as each division can have it's own database (I assume ?). Most of the RFD's have an electronic register anyway so they are already 1/2 way there.

With the advances of contactless cards, the system could offer even more advantages, for example when you walk through the door of the RFD's premises he would know who you are, you walk up to the till and there is a picture of you on his screen, he already knows your name ....

But how do you do a face to face section 1 transfer be that ammunition or a firearm including moderators. What is wrong with the current paper certificate? I sold 80 rounds of ammo for .308 recently as they didn't suit my rifle, it got entered on the buyer's certificate as required. In your new system would I have to download, print and submit a form for any ammunition bought or sold on a private basis? If so your system is severely flawed as you are just getting rid of one paper form that will accommodate a hundred plus ammo transactions and doesnt get submitted until the form is full for another form that has to be submitted for every transaction....

As Bewsher says don't carry it with you all the time just when you're buying something and it will last fine.

How can you not have a national system, what if I go and buy a rifle from Derbyshire? Or pick up some ammunition in Kent whilst on holiday?

And what happens when you drive 3 hours to pick up a rifle only to find the RFD's Internet is down and they can't complete the transaction?

I think the flexibility of a paper record and 7 day timescale is actually of a lot of benefit and really not a lot of effort, particularly if you use email notifications for transfers and get a read receipt to keep for your records.

PS. When I walk through the door at the 2 RFDs I use regularly they already know my name, just from looking at my face!

 

[25 Sharps]

And one more thing, again with a private sale, how does the seller without a reader, A- Know what the buyer has authority to aquire, B- know that the buyer hasn't already filled the empty slot, which is evident wth the current paper as the seller should check the slot hasn't been filled.

Essentially it doesn't work or is inefficient for any section 1 private sale because private sellers won't have readers

 

[DAVIDAIKEN]

I went to see a new permission and got it On production of my FAC and SGC plus insurance. Im sure the landowner will never have a card reader, nor will he call a database to check my credentials. But imagine the chaos if he did, the police cant cope with the FAC holder calling let alone jo public!

 

[Miki]

Calm. The card only has a key-code and a number on it, the same number as on the front (of the card) which also has your name on it. Nothing else. You still have a certificate, but the FELD don't send it to you, if you want a copy you need to logon with your name, number and password, a password that is unique to you and you don't tell anyone else and print a copy off. If you need to have a paper copy to prove to a third party or feel the urge to write on something. The RFD will log onto his portal and by entering your number (manually by looking at your card or automatically by sticking it his reader) get your information up on his screen. Your certificate appears before him. If he was a nice RFD he could print you a copy off too.

The key-code provides a level of security so that the Police (and only the police) can identify it as a real card.

The RFD can't change anything on your certificate/record or card - neither can you, only the FELD can. Like the RFD's do now and like you have to do, if you 'transact' you have to inform the FELD within the normal timeframe. This time you logon to your account (using your number and your password) and you fill in the appropriate form and submit it, the FLD has their own account which they would update (as normal) too. The FELD review this information and enter it onto your "record". You print off your certificate (if you want to) and it's got all of the info on it.

Private sales are still the same, each of us still have the responsibility to make sure that we/him are legaly entitled. So I would suggest that if you are meeting in a darkened car park behind Tesco's or in a lay-by on the A45 you print a copy of your FAC/SGC prior to your meeting and prior to accepting cash from a total stranger. Remember you need to go into the website and declare the transaction within the time limit allowed by the firearms act, the sooner the better really as this means that your "certificate" is updated sooner.

 

[Lord V]

Passports and drivers license are linked through a government portal, if you have a current passport an updated drivers licence is only a click away. It would be nice if FAC and SGC'S were on the same system.

 

[25 Sharps]

Calm. The card only has a key-code and a number on it, the same number as on the front (of the card) which also has your name on it. Nothing else. You still have a certificate, but the FELD don't send it to you, if you want a copy you need to logon with your name, number and password, a password that is unique to you and you don't tell anyone else and print a copy off. If you need to have a paper copy to prove to a third party or feel the urge to write on something. The RFD will log onto his portal and by entering your number (manually by looking at your card or automatically by sticking it his reader) get your information up on his screen. Your certificate appears before him. If he was a nice RFD he could print you a copy off too.

The key-code provides a level of security so that the Police (and only the police) can identify it as a real card.

The RFD can't change anything on your certificate/record or card - neither can you, only the FELD can. Like the RFD's do now and like you have to do, if you 'transact' you have to inform the FELD within the normal timeframe. This time you logon to your account (using your number and your password) and you fill in the appropriate form and submit it, the FLD has their own account which they would update (as normal) too. The FELD review this information and enter it onto your "record". You print off your certificate (if you want to) and it's got all of the info on it.

Private sales are still the same, each of us still have the responsibility to make sure that we/him are legaly entitled. So I would suggest that if you are meeting in a darkened car park behind Tesco's or in a lay-by on the A45 you print a copy of your FAC/SGC prior to your meeting and prior to accepting cash from a total stranger. Remember you need to go into the website and declare the transaction within the time limit allowed by the firearms act, the sooner the better really as this means that your "certificate" is updated sooner.

I am very fortunate in being under Wilts so service is excellent, my last variation took a phone call and a ten minute appointment. But all in all the above sounds like a lot of faff and effort compared to the current system, just reading it was hard work!

As for printing a paper copy off how easy would this make forgeries, if FACs could just be printed on standard office paper? Far, far too easy and open to abuse by unscrupulous Individuals

 

[Miki]

I am very fortunate in being under Wilts so service is excellent, my last variation took a phone call and a ten minute appointment. But all in all the above sounds like a lot of faff and effort compared to the current system, just reading it was hard work!
As for printing a paper copy off how easy would this make forgeries, if FACs could just be printed on standard office paper? Far, far too easy and open to abuse by unscrupulous Individuals

Let go, you don't need a 'paper' certificate. If you really want one you can print one off but it doesn't mean anything, your certificate is online.
Double/treble handling of paper, copying of information onto databases that then need to be printed out on paper again is wastefull, slow and (as you've succinctly noticed) open to forgery.

Describe a situation that requires a paper (FA/SH) certificate ?

 

[25 Sharps]

Let go, you don't need a 'paper' certificate. If you really want one you can print one off but it doesn't mean anything, your certificate is online.
Double/treble handling of paper, copying of information onto databases that then need to be printed out on paper again is wastefull, slow and (as you've succinctly noticed) open to forgery.

Describe a situation that requires a paper (FA/SH) certificate ?

Private sale of section one firearm or ammunition, for both parties, authority to possess and authority to acquire.

You forget there are RFDs out there that still aren't on line too, John Bowkett for one!

Nothing is slow, in Wilts' at least, make a phone call get an appointment, all my variations have been done from 4-15 minutes and that includes parking the car. The one time I did a postal variation it took 2 days! All my notifications are done by email and acknowledged by my FEO via the same for my records.

We don't needs new system we just need all the forces to justify the extra fees they are getting, up their game and bring their service in line with Wiltshire who prove time and time again the current system works and is efficient.

You're the ne that needs to let go of this half thought out impractical system.

 

[25 Sharps]

The key-code provides a level of security so that the Police (and only the police) can identify it as a real card.

Why on earth would that be useful, there are plenty of parties other than the police who need to know an FAC is real? What about a syndicate manager, or the secretary of a full or small bore club, as pointed out above what about a landowner wanting to know the firearms used on his land are bona fide? Think about people out of your own sphere of experience.

Private sales are still the same, each of us still have the responsibility to make sure that we/him are legaly entitled.

But that isn't how private sales currently are, or any sale, the onus is on the vendor as well as the certificate holder to ensure the sale does not place the holder of the certificate in possession of firearms or ammunition in excess of that allowed by the certificate. Go read your certificate, if you have one to hand... You certainly couldn't fit all the necessary notes on a plastic card!

 

[25 Sharps]

I just read your introduction about applying for your FAC, all of 2 months ago, should have guessed from some of your posts. You don't really have any knowledge or experience of how things or done, highlighted by the fact you seem to have limited knowledge of private sales or think that there aren't any anti forgery measures on the FACs as they are.

How about spending a couple of years under the current system before making anymore suggestions on how thing should be done?

 

[Miki]

But that isn't how private sales currently are, or any sale, the onus is on the vendor as well as the certificate holder to ensure the sale does not place the holder of the certificate in possession of firearms or ammunition in excess of that allowed by the certificate. Go read your certificate, if you have one to hand... You certainly couldn't fit all the necessary notes on a plastic card!

There is nothing on the plastic card, it's all 'on-line' in the FELD's database. You log in (using your code) and there it is. The Syndicate manager logs in to his account, you tell him your code, up pops the info he needs. Same with the secretary of the small bore club. The RFD's register is online too (although you did mention that John Bowkett isn't so he is persumably still operating a paper register - which he needs to send into the FELD). If you effect a private sale, you log in and fill in a form. If you really feel the urge you could print that form off and stick it in a file, but the fact that you have filled in the form online means that it's in the que for the FELD to update the database. The same database you log into to view your entitlements.

You're quite right, it is up to the vendor as well as the certificate holder to ensure the sale does not place the holder of the certificate in possession of firearms or ammunition in excess of that allowed by the certificate, so come in, have a cup of tea and i'll log into the website and login to my account. I'll open the transaction/transfer page and enter your certificate number, which will instantly tell me that neither of us are breaking the law. I'll even let you log into your account and you can confirm the transaction too.

Unless of course you are meeting in a layby off the A361, or round the back of the Chruchill Arms in Littleton Panell after closing .......

 

[Miki]

How about spending a couple of years under the current system before making anymore suggestions on how thing should be done?

35 and bit years enough ??