What happened

[Gazza]

Mark, I am always inspired when you use the word "stalled" instead of "binned" as regards the beginnings of what could be one of the best dog clubs in the UK. As said the initial response you received was fantastic and just perhaps considering that those who showed interest have more to offer than just a dog that they would wish to train/work could there be mileage in opening up to the potential membership with a view to harvesting what they may be willing to contribute. I would think that the potential advantages of a club like you have envisaged is too good not to push forward.

 

[AJM]

“Patronising” Goodness me! I’m coming up to 60 years old and up till now I have never been accused of being patronising before; thanks
It was not my intention to patronise anyone but if that’s how you feel, well so be it.

My intention is to defend a man, whom has no voice on this forum, but has put a lot of work, time and money into a project that could only be of benefit to the stalking community and by implication will benefit the humane culling of deer.
I have seen the bills, the statements and spoken to the people involved, including an esteemed foreign guest, so with the information I have, I do stand by my previous post.

You decided to make this personal by calling me patronising, but I only write the same words that I would speak to that persons face.
Maybe I’m a bit of a dinosaur in that way?

 

[cookingfat]

I dont think AJM has been patronizing in his post, he has just given a little of the other side of the story and as steve can't post on here him self i think what has been writen is pretty fair.
The biggist loser out of all this is us and the stalking community, those of us that have had a training day with Kim will know what i am talking about, lets hope that Mark or someone in the future very soon gets a club up and running and one whitch is open to all dogs of all abilities.

CF

 

[Orion]

................................. lets hope that Mark or someone in the future very soon gets a club up and running and one whitch is open to all dogs of all abilities.

My sentiments exactly, Tony.

 

[paintandpins]

It was a good idea, and could work well however i dont want to be part of a slanging match or witch hunt which is what is happening. I didnt take it forward at the time as i did not feel that Steve was a man i wanted to have a business relationship with, its as easy as that. I have tried to patch it up and compromise i cant, we both lost out as did you all. I don’t think bad of the guy I just don’t want to be in business with him though I would have been prepared to give it a go to get this working as I have let him know, and i thought the club had more advantages for members. That’s why I wanted a club, no legal ties if it went wrong with him which I felt it may do.
So anyone wanting to take this forward please let me know but one condition , must had over teddies and pram before negotiations commence.
mark

 

[AJM]

And with an end paragraph such as that; I am sure you will do well!

 

[paintandpins]

Oh ajm lighten up, this is being turned into a very boring drudge though what happened when a club wasn’t set up, im sure most folk aren’t interested, possibly saving their energy for a fun happy club which delivers what it promises. At the end of the day there was two of us involved in the setup and break-up and unless you are one of them you have no idea what went on and im not prepared to explain it. Perhaps you could help getting a club together with ideas of how we could go ahead should it be club or business, what do people want what do people have to offer. Im sure people are as sick of this thread as i am , lets move it forward.

 

[British Shooting Services]

Gents, just wrote a long reply to one of the threads but ended up not being able to post it. Anyway PLC ( Private limited Company)is the way to go, our angling association changed to one 9 years ago due to the benefits. We are not for profit, but are able to make money , the surplus being kept for emergencies which have happened in the past, one cost us £250k running costs are also catered for. The only person who gets paid an annual Honourarium is the sec and its only a few hundred quid. Members are not shareholders, but are able to alter what the committee (directors) decide. Simple really if the members don't like what we are doing they have the mechanism to get rid of us. It all comes dowm to what you put in the articles of association and memorandum of association (these are the binding rules registered with companies house that we operate by). We now have 450 adult members and 60 junior members and for my sins I am the chairman. Need more info Pm me

ATB
ADE

 

[JC275]

Why not approach the BDS? The central training dept is in place, the branch structure is in place, it is already a charity so no issue with profits after expenses etc, the use of deer dogs fits very nicely in the deer welfare remit of the society. Some people may not like to be involved due to being anti-BDS for whatever reason but you can't please all of the people all of the time. Some of the BDS branches have run deer dog days in the past.

JC

PS: this is just an idea to try and keep the idea of a more stuctured UK deer dog thing moving forward in a positive way. Please don't use my post as a springboard for another 'what did the BDS ever do for me thread'. Thanks.

 

[Orion]

I for one would not like to see any proposed tracking dog club/society as an affiliated section of an existing organisation - and BTW I'm not anti BDS, BASC or any other charitable body or shooting organisation. I just think it needs to be distanced from any existing body because it is such a sufficiently specialised subject that it can stand on it's own two feet.

Have a look at the situation in the USA with United Bloodtrackers etc., or even better and more local to us, the Danish Tracking register http://www.schweiss.dk/page13.aspx

I'm also not overly certain that the word 'deer' should appear in the title. Okay, we all know that that is the main reason any of us on this forum, (and no doubt elsewhere), will be training a tracking dog for, but look at it from outside of our small insular stalking fraternity. If we are to promote the concept of a register of tracking dogs for injured or wounded animals, (not just shot runners), then it would be far more acceptable for certain organisations and individuals who might have issues with it to use us if we were not narrowly aligned with hunting. Unfortunately unlike Denmark our society does not have a modern hunting tradition and that is my reasoning for the above.

What do you think?

 

[JC275]

I for one would not like to see any proposed tracking dog club/society as an affiliated section of an existing organisation - and BTW I'm not anti BDS, BASC or any other charitable body or shooting organisation. I just think it needs to be distanced from any existing body because it is such a sufficiently specialised subject that it can stand on it's own two feet.

Have a look at the situation in the USA with United Bloodtrackers etc., or even better and more local to us, the Danish Tracking register http://www.schweiss.dk/page13.aspx

I'm also not overly certain that the word 'deer' should appear in the title. Okay, we all know that that is the main reason any of us on this forum, (and no doubt elsewhere), will be training a tracking dog for, but look at it from outside of our small insular stalking fraternity. If we are to promote the concept of a register of tracking dogs for injured or wounded animals, (not just shot runners), then it would be far more acceptable for certain organisations and individuals who might have issues with it to use us if we were not narrowly aligned with hunting. Unfortunately unlike Denmark our society does not have a modern hunting tradition and that is my reasoning for the above.

What do you think?

All fair points there Orion. I agree that any tracking club should be a big enough thing to stand alone but, it has to be get there and be recognised fast enough to weather the initial storms. Maybe working with an existing organisation could help this. The Schweiss idea was very good and I was keen to be part of it but, it clearly couldn't stand the initial teething problems. Hopefully, on a positive note, the failure of this project, and the lessons learnt, should help to make the next attempt a success. I don't have any knowledge of the specifics of the problems but wish all of those involved well, when you put yourself forward to do things then you always risk problems. Those that never do anything never fail etc.

Just to throw in another idea; has anyone looked into the groups that use Lowland and Mountain Rescue Search dogs? How are they organised and run?

JC

 

[Jagare]

Orion, The Danish tracking register is affiliated to the main danish hunting organisation and the Danish forest and nature agency so they certianly don't stand on there own 2 feet.
The Danish trackers are paid for there milage if called out by hunters and paid by other goverment agencies if called out by the police or Falk, Falk is a bit like the AA.
We have similar system here in Sweden. Its run under the Umbrella of the Jägareförbundet.
The English tracking club needs to be set up for the English model of stalking.
Many of the tracks here in Sweden are done on RTA,s and we don,t have the hurdles put in the way by the plod or English firearm law and the have better access to private land to follow up injured animal.

 

[cookingfat]

I for one would not like to see any proposed tracking dog club/society as an affiliated section of an existing organisation - and BTW I'm not anti BDS, BASC or any other charitable body or shooting organisation. I just think it needs to be distanced from any existing body because it is such a sufficiently specialised subject that it can stand on it's own two feet.

Have a look at the situation in the USA with United Bloodtrackers etc., or even better and more local to us, the Danish Tracking register http://www.schweiss.dk/page13.aspx

I'm also not overly certain that the word 'deer' should appear in the title. Okay, we all know that that is the main reason any of us on this forum, (and no doubt elsewhere), will be training a tracking dog for, but look at it from outside of our small insular stalking fraternity. If we are to promote the concept of a register of tracking dogs for injured or wounded animals, (not just shot runners), then it would be far more acceptable for certain organisations and individuals who might have issues with it to use us if we were not narrowly aligned with hunting. Unfortunately unlike Denmark our society does not have a modern hunting tradition and that is my reasoning for the above.

What do you think?

Graham I think you are right, any tracking club/society must stand on it's own, although as JC275 says it maybe difficult without one of the bigger organistions behind it now, as schweiss uk has failed.
I have been to a few deer dog days run by various organistions over the years and they all charge too much money in my veiw,one I whent to was a two day course and cost £195 and the person taking the coures never had a dog with him to give a demo. I was even thinking about going to the NGO deer dog day being run in september but at £75 each I feel that someone is making too much money and I thought that the NGO did things almost at cost with a little aded on for members!.
I agree that cost must be coverd and thats what i thought schweiss uk was about, covering the cost of Kim and his dogs to be brought over and thats not £75 a head, maybe I am very wrong or just tight.

CF

 

[Peter Eaton]

Woooooow...£195 per person...thats alot of money, I had a very very successful buisness around ten years ago and part of that buisnes was running courses for nurses...that buisness had large overheads. They paid no-where near that price for courses , bearing in mind they were courses required for their profession and acredited. A buisness charging £195 per person would be very profitable...but only if it were running courses weekly for example and not just every now and then..oh and Im not knocking any of you guys who run such buisness ventures with that statement... Yes I agree if someone sets up a buisness you have to pay but I guess it wouldnt have been 1 to 1 tuition ...as a matter of interest how many were on the course over the two days? as that would have to be factored in to the price, just seems alot if for example you have a few on the course

 

[JC275]

No disrespect to anyone but, straight away we are getting bogged down in the nitty gritty of course costs etc. I'm certain that if this is to suceed then everyone involved must be positive and see the big picture. Get the thing up and running first, get people on board then do the fine tuning.

I have run 'one off' courses in the past and charged around £90/day, even without site fees and instructors fees etc, I can assure you that its not a get rich quick scheme. Obviously if you are running them weekly then costs and admin hassles will fall dramatically but I can't see this ever being the case with a dogs for deer course.

JC

 

[Bavarianbrit]

Woooooow...£195 per person...thats alot of money, I had a very very successful buisness around ten years ago and part of that buisnes was running courses for nurses...that buisness had large overheads. They paid no-where near that price for courses , bearing in mind they were courses required for their profession and acredited. A buisness charging £195 per person would be very profitable...but only if it were running courses weekly for example and not just every now and then..oh and Im not knocking any of you guys who run such buisness ventures with that statement... Yes I agree if someone sets up a buisness you have to pay but I guess it wouldnt have been 1 to 1 tuition ...as a matter of interest how many were on the course over the two days? as that would have to be factored in to the price, just seems alot if for example you have a few on the course

My friend in Germany was looking at running a dog tracking course in the UK because he runs the BodoBande company over there and is a passionate dog tracking work man.
We looked at
1. Time it takes to travel to the UK roundtrip.
2. Cost of dog passport for UK entry.
3. Paying for use of hall for lectures.
4. Finding local grounds to use for tracking demonstration.
5. Loss of a weeks business time for him in Germany.
6. Cost of me flying over from Bavaria to help him with translating difficult areas of use to course participants as his English is not 100% (I was not asking for any payment as I would do it for the craik, but I do not do practical dog work myself although I understand all the principals involved).
7. Local hotels and food to pay for.
Etc it adds up.
Martin

 

[Peter Eaton]

Hi Bav.

Yes I completely agree, it all does add up and initially I agree it would be expensive. But like any venture, eventually the overheads would begin to even out as such. Like I said if it were a one of course then I would expect it to be a touch pricey but something that was set up to grow I would expect to level out and the costs fall, if they didnt I may aswell take my dog to the more costly course. Like I said I am not knocking any one who runs courses, just giving an imput which I hope can be taken on board to give a broader spectrum of views.

Regards

Pete

 

[Orion]

Orion, The Danish tracking register is affiliated to the main danish hunting organisation and the Danish forest and nature agency so they certianly don't stand on there own 2 feet.
The Danish trackers are paid for there milage if called out by hunters and paid by other goverment agencies if called out by the police or Falk, Falk is a bit like the AA.
We have similar system here in Sweden. Its run under the Umbrella of the Jägareförbundet.
The English tracking club needs to be set up for the English model of stalking.
Many of the tracks here in Sweden are done on RTA,s and we don,t have the hurdles put in the way by the plod or English firearm law and the have better access to private land to follow up injured animal.

All points taken onboard but I wasn't suggesting that the Skandi tracking organisations were not integrated with the hunting and other people you have mentioned - in fact it's a situation that we can only dream about over here with the fragmented hunting scene we currently experience.

IMHO it's a good illustration of why any nascent UK tracking dog club/society shouldn't be an add-on to one of the existing shooting etc. organisations (BASC/BDS/Whatever), because it could severely limit who you are able to talk to or act on behalf of in the future. I'm not advocating being totally isolated from any of our existing orgs, and lines of communication and co-operation should of course be open and built upon, but why not keep it as a seperate specialism?

I believe Mark wanted to avoid having a tracking dog register swallowed up by one of the existing orgs because, among a number of reasons, it could just turn into yet another money spinning course, run by those with little real specialization in the subject, and certainly giving none of the benefits that interaction with the Swedish, Danish and German experts could provide.

 

[paintandpins]

My idea was to avoid the organisations and with good reason. not because i don’t like them or have an axe to grind but because i know they would not do it justice. Some tracking training provided by the big three/four is good, the majority is very poor.
I would see the organisations coming to the club for advice and training.
I do not speak without knowledge on this subject. I spent a year designing a course for one of the organisations which would have led to a qualification, however they wanted to deliver it through providers who may or may not have any dog experience never mind tracking knowledge.
This is easy you just need the people who are willing to run it and not just say they are and do nothing.
The cost issue raises another point, why become hung up on getting handlers from abroad why don’t we do it. I can think of some very good talented handlers in this country, many who have not long started out and who i know could give any continental handler and dog a run for the money. Why not have a club where people get together have a laugh and learn while the dogs make fools out of them.
The idea about trainers from abroad is good one as regards info sharing and to see how others do it but i bet we could put courses together here which would be just as good, and as i said they are done on paper and i have delivered them to individuals and groups. I think we should have more faith in ourselves.
We lead the world in dog handling across the board in this country and i cant see why we treat tracking as some black magic, believe me it isn’t.
Why not have a look at the American club and they way they have their register and remember that attitudes to stalking need to change to allow this to work but that will come with time.
.

 

[Roedinator]

my only contribution to add to this thread is to totally agree with cooking fat
having been on two dog days both organised from this site
having met some fantastic people including kim and his brialliant black lab tracking champion
I learnt the importance of having a good dog for stalking and the merits it brings
which led to me buying a fully trained GWP from shooting times at great expense
which i am thriled to bits with .
I am not going to get dragged into politics of whos right or whos wrong but having met steve
on two occasions and being impressed with his knowledge and organisational skills
i feel that we as stalkers and dog owners are the only losers as to the club not going ahead
as there is alot to be learned in the world of tracking .

just my honest opinion regards pete .