This may get a few members hackles up, its about their loved rifles.
- Thread starter John Gryphon
- Start date
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Don't forget that you aren't planning on being a PH. It is his job to keep you safe. Your job is just to hit the thing well enough to reduce the chance of him having to do so. No need for a client to worry too much about this article: trust your life to the man standing next to you rather than to your rifle.
Kind regards,
Carl
Nkawu
Well-Known Member
I think that is because the aspiring PH doing the exams could not afford the higher end stuff.
Good read and makes sense. I have yet to see a factory rifle that I would be happy to just shoot. From rabbit to target rifle I will work on every rifle or shotgun. Factories just don't have the time or patience to do things really right.
A few years back I got a 1909 Mauser which was re-barrelled to 308 for me in Germany, the rifle used to be in 7.65x53? which has a much narrower rim than the 308. I wanted to have a super reliable bush gun and threw the Mauser mag system out to replace with an AICS that can take up to 10 rounds, I also have experience fitting aics mags. It took me about two days to rework the extractor that the feed was 100% reliable and that also a cartridge thrown in from the top would chamber with the claw sliding around the rim. The rifle only had one issue in several years which was down to shooting very fast not in the shoulder properly and using a cheap plastic magazine... cartridges flipped in the mag.
I totally agree with the author that rifles need proper bedding, and stock needing some reinforcing against cracking. I have repaired enough stocks that cracked only because of recoil.
edi
A few years back I got a 1909 Mauser which was re-barrelled to 308 for me in Germany, the rifle used to be in 7.65x53? which has a much narrower rim than the 308. I wanted to have a super reliable bush gun and threw the Mauser mag system out to replace with an AICS that can take up to 10 rounds, I also have experience fitting aics mags. It took me about two days to rework the extractor that the feed was 100% reliable and that also a cartridge thrown in from the top would chamber with the claw sliding around the rim. The rifle only had one issue in several years which was down to shooting very fast not in the shoulder properly and using a cheap plastic magazine... cartridges flipped in the mag.
I totally agree with the author that rifles need proper bedding, and stock needing some reinforcing against cracking. I have repaired enough stocks that cracked only because of recoil.
edi
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
I disagree with that, if i am paying plenty to hunt Africa I want to kill my own and not rely on someone else to finish off thus having the best one can afford in ones claw is a smart move.
John Gryphon
Well-Known Member
Well it has hackled up "mr x" a new member that has been into my profile page and posted some ****,it seems he hasn't posted at all yet he has left three comments on my page.
It seems that he has taken Don Heaths writings personally.
His forum name is the same as this blokes and he claims to be the one that is in the article.
Was very annoyed that the Rems were given a bad time in the article,well paper doesnt charge you like a friggn lion does.
Champion shooter Mitchell Maxberry had rifle association in sights
It seems that he has taken Don Heaths writings personally.
His forum name is the same as this blokes and he claims to be the one that is in the article.
Was very annoyed that the Rems were given a bad time in the article,well paper doesnt charge you like a friggn lion does.
Champion shooter Mitchell Maxberry had rifle association in sights
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Thanks for your thoughful response and insight to the PH situation. WHen i was a young man, I got to fire a 577 Nitro Double Rifle and fell in love with it. I don't know the make but it was about 12 pounds of brute and I was enthralled. I have wanted one since but the more practical side of me doesn't chase that dream in broad day light.
The worst creatures we have here are grizzly bear and mountain lion. Both are potential man killers but I have seldom worried about the performance of my hunting rifle on these creatures. My 375 H&H is an elk rifle to me. Sounds kind of tame. doesn't it?~Muir
I have owned, in so-called, "DG rifles":
4 pre-64 Model 70 Winchester African and Safari
1 post-New Haven Model 70 Safari
1 Ruger Safari
1 Brno 602
1 CZ 550 Safari
1 Brevex Square Bridge Mauser
1 Sako L61R
1 Holland & Holland SxS
1 Winchester 1885 45/70
1 Marlin .444 ( don't laugh until you try it )
I have borrowed, shot, and taken game with heavy cartridges in friends' Remington 700, Thomas Bland SxS, Merkel SxS, Krieghoff, that I can recall this late at night.
I have think this article is a bit anecdotal, with skimpy experience with many of the rifles...not much more than mine.
Any of the rifles I listed above will work as well as any others, if you take the time to become familiar with them.
My magnum Mauser in .375 was slick as a whistle, but so was the Brno 602 and the modern Model 70. The Model 70 was as smooth out of the box as the custom magnum Mauser and Brno 602 were after decades of moderate use ( 4 of the Big Five taken with the Mauser ).ur
But controlled round feed is over-rated. The Sako and Remington 70 will do the job, every time. The slickest Mauser will not bail your ass out if you panic and fail to operate it properly. The US Army and US Marine Corps have used the Remington for 45 years, in worse conditions and stress as any big game hunt.
Whether shooting ducks, deer, or charging things with teeth, buy what fits you, mounts the same every time without thinking, that shoots where you see, and has your confidence, with all the power your can handle without consideration of noise or recoil. Then just practice with it. Don't buy what others think you should have.
4 pre-64 Model 70 Winchester African and Safari
1 post-New Haven Model 70 Safari
1 Ruger Safari
1 Brno 602
1 CZ 550 Safari
1 Brevex Square Bridge Mauser
1 Sako L61R
1 Holland & Holland SxS
1 Winchester 1885 45/70
1 Marlin .444 ( don't laugh until you try it )
I have borrowed, shot, and taken game with heavy cartridges in friends' Remington 700, Thomas Bland SxS, Merkel SxS, Krieghoff, that I can recall this late at night.
I have think this article is a bit anecdotal, with skimpy experience with many of the rifles...not much more than mine.
Any of the rifles I listed above will work as well as any others, if you take the time to become familiar with them.
My magnum Mauser in .375 was slick as a whistle, but so was the Brno 602 and the modern Model 70. The Model 70 was as smooth out of the box as the custom magnum Mauser and Brno 602 were after decades of moderate use ( 4 of the Big Five taken with the Mauser ).ur
But controlled round feed is over-rated. The Sako and Remington 70 will do the job, every time. The slickest Mauser will not bail your ass out if you panic and fail to operate it properly. The US Army and US Marine Corps have used the Remington for 45 years, in worse conditions and stress as any big game hunt.
Whether shooting ducks, deer, or charging things with teeth, buy what fits you, mounts the same every time without thinking, that shoots where you see, and has your confidence, with all the power your can handle without consideration of noise or recoil. Then just practice with it. Don't buy what others think you should have.
alberta boy
Well-Known Member
An important point . There is a big difference between a hunting rifle for large game and a fighting rifle , which the PH carries . It's a fairly common theme in most hunting situations . I've had a few fighting rifles for North American Big Game . One of the best was an old Husky in 9.3X62 , followed by a Brno 602 in 375 H&H . I consider these to be medium bores , and to be honest a bit light as a PH stopping rifle for Africa . Both of the previous rifles were bedded , cross pinned and were tweaked over a number of years . Both rifles would even feed empty cases and were absolutely reliable in all conditions . I passed them along as I don't guide for dangerous game anymore , but I should have kept the Husky , a truly useful rifle and cartridge combo for my part of the world .
I still get asked a lot about suitable cartridges for hunting Moose , Coastal and Interior Grizzly and other large game . Quite a few are under the impression they need a 338WM and up for these animals , truth is , they don't . I would far prefer some one to show up with a lesser caliber that they are comfortable with ( a 30/06 is always a good idea , unless after coastal browns ) and have put a lot of rounds through . As a young man guiding , I learned to be cautious of people who showed up with suspiciously new looking large caliber rifles when after big animals . I would always make sure they could use what they brought with them , the sad truth is , a lot of them couldn't . I suspect it's not much different in Africa , or anywhere else for that matter . Forgive the ramble lol .
AB
Carl's point is a fair one - his people have a duty of care for their clients
They could be called upon to rectify a problem - as he says 'when the wheels come off
I did a similar DG course many years ago - most rangers and the few PHs I came across then opted for the .375 Bruno - largely, I believe, due to availability and cost
My experience as a ranger is so long ago that I've little to offer to this conversation but I do remember that several experienced guys made the point that shooting or guiding in open savannah is very different to shooting / guiding in thick bush
Where a medium caliber is sufficient for the first scenario, many would have preferred the reliability, speed and sheer punch of a double in 416 or above for the latter
They could be called upon to rectify a problem - as he says 'when the wheels come off
I did a similar DG course many years ago - most rangers and the few PHs I came across then opted for the .375 Bruno - largely, I believe, due to availability and cost
My experience as a ranger is so long ago that I've little to offer to this conversation but I do remember that several experienced guys made the point that shooting or guiding in open savannah is very different to shooting / guiding in thick bush
Where a medium caliber is sufficient for the first scenario, many would have preferred the reliability, speed and sheer punch of a double in 416 or above for the latter
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CarlW
Well-Known Member
Definitely a good idea to bring the most familiar and the best (not necessarily the most expensive) rifle you can. Also, good and moral to seek to kill your own animals. However, you have a back-up guy standing next to you who has the training, the experience, and (hopefully) the battle-worn rifle to save your life, if required. And, they rarely object when you omit them from the stories you tell later down the pub.
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Grizzly bear and mountain lion sound scary enough to me
Well, Well snap! My Africa trio are all Ron's work. .275 Rigby, .375 H&H, and a .500NE double by Hollis. A fine character and an amazing Aladdins cave workshop
Most of the PHs I have hunted with to a man use CZ .458 Lott, apart from one who had a double .470 Heym
Carl, when you ask the client to test shoot, have you ever had one ask you to do the same? After all he may have to rely on you if it all goes wrong and knowing you can shoot as well is a fair ask
As an aside my first elephant hunt in Luangwa valley many years ago, the PH ended up shooting the ele in error. He was rifle up as I was getting ready, pushed off his safety and..... bang. Shot initially in guts, but a rapid follow up and a couple of shots later it was down. That as Don mentions was a Weatherby! I had a free hunt the following year - 2 weeks all in and only paid for any game taken other than a replacement elephant. Not sure I would hunt them now. The last trip in Niassa last year we hardly saw any and they ran from trucks, never seen that before. 5 years earlier there were plenty about and not troubled by man's presence at all - quite the reverse!
S
CarlW
Well-Known Member
Hi Sh1kar,
Ron was a talented and special guy, eh? I liked the way he could smoke a whole cigarette without taking it out of his mouth and without any of the ash falling off. His smoking really did not obey the normal laws of physics.
I am laughing at your question. No client has ever asked one of our PHs to prove that he can shoot too! I feel mischief coming over me. The next time a client is proving zero, I fully intend to turn to one of the PHs and suggest it. "So, James, fair's fair: your turn next..."
Tormenting my colleagues aside, in reality, being able to hit a dot on a box at 80 metres (either off a bench or off sticks) is not really what their job is all about. Most of our guys have open sights and are only called upon to shoot at extremely close range when people are at risk. It is less about marksmanship and more about CQB skills.
I bet your ele-shooting PH is still teased about it today. What a nightmare. It sounds like it was well handled by the operator, though. Good professionalism, eh?
V best,
Carl
The S African game rangers rifle test involved shooting rapidly at 15 then 10 and then 5m
It was about cycling the bolt rapidly and re-engaging a 'moving target' (the wheels as they came off)
It was not about shooting the whiskers off a gnat in the neighboring country
Still a challenge though
It was about cycling the bolt rapidly and re-engaging a 'moving target' (the wheels as they came off)
It was not about shooting the whiskers off a gnat in the neighboring country
Still a challenge though
Thanks but no thanks. I am fully responsible for making the shot and managing the downstream events. (I appreciate the PH's perspective needs to include client safety, but I will not be actively outsourcing my own responsibilty to be competent and prepared, including reliable rifle)
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