I've been asked by GMP to submit sample cartridge casings - anyone else been asked?

[jon2]

Dear all

I have recieved a letter from GMP asking me to provide sample cartridge cases for both shotguns and firearms that are registered to me.

I just wanted to establish if any other licensing authority has asked the same?

In the letter it states that there has been a spate of unlawful discharges of "weapons" across the UK and if you could kindly supply a used cartridge case from each of your firearms we can then eliminate immediately from our enquiries.

As I am sure this is not mandatory (partly the reason for my post is to establish this) or compulsory by law I will not be complying with the request.

Just wondered as I say if any other authorities were making similar requests?

Thanks

JB

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

Jon, I have not heard of that in general.

Specifically here in NI, the polis will take sample of both fired bullets and cartridge cases from pistols before they are released to the owner. These are retained in a "Ballistics database"!

About five years ago, we got letters from the cops stating that we would be required to present our CF rifles for ballistics testing, ie they would take the rifles and fire them, retaining the cartridge case and sample fired bullets. However, this never happened, or at least, I have never been asked to present my rifles for testing.

 

[jon2]

Interesting Brian

The request has so many flaws in it that it is a total waste of time anyway unless 2 things happen.

1) It is compulsory/mandatory of all FAC/SGC holders to comply.

2) The testing is done by the Police themselves so that the cartridge cases relate to the firearm in question.

Also it states unlawful discharge as the rationale. This will be from unlicensed firearms anyway I would think.

 

[8x57]

I,ve heard of this happening many years ago when owners were asked to submit pistols of a certain calibre for ballistic examination for ellimination purposes with regard to a murder. I don't know how useful this was because the pistol belonged to a friend and the case was in the Sheffield or Derbyshire area.

 

[Mannlicher_Stu]

What a load of crap

What happens if you change the firing pin due to a defect after submission of any cartridge case the indentation would be totally different than one on record. also different powder loading would have different effects on the properties of the brass with different extractor markings or if your bolt had work done on it at a gunsmiths in respect to a new extractor all balistic marks would change.

 

[Orion]

It's not just the firing pin indent in the primer that can help to link a spent case to a firearm. There's the mark from the extractor and striations and other marks left in the copper from the chamber itself.

Unless GMP can justify something more focused than the blanket request they've made I wouldn't entertain it. Anyone else think the 'eliminate from enquiries' smacks a bit of a threat, given there's no specific enquiry mentioned? Are BASC or any of the shooting orgs aware of this? Nothing has come out of D&C as far as I am aware.

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

I would be interested to know under what legal authority such action is being taken. You can be sure that there is no current legislation to cover this else it would have been done long ago. This is the same rubbish as innocent people having their DNA taken and stored against their wishes.

Is this some bullsh!t that a senior police officer has decided to try and implement as a "guidance", comply or be seen as a "trouble maker"?

Jon, they are asking you to send in samples? You could send them any shite off the range.

 

[caorach]

I have heard of one person having their centrefire rifle called in for testing Brian, I think they lived about Larne way and they said they were only without the rifle for a very short time.

This GMP thing nearly sounds like a spoof and I'd be calling them to check up on the details before I sent a case to anyone as there is nothing to stop you just picking up a case at the range and sending it in to them and if you'd any concerns at all about your rifle being involved in something this is exactly what you'd do. It is also the case that this is what anyone engaged in some dodgy activity would do - pick up their own brass and throw down some from the range so the fact that brass from your rifle was found at the scene of an unlawful discharge tells you nothing.

 

[Mannlicher_Stu]

I would refuse.

Where in the fire arms act does it say you have to provide a spent cartridge case.
Different matter of course if the police believe that a firearm in your possesion has been used in a crime they then have the legal right to confiscate it for the enquiries. But to create a nationwide ballistic data base of firearms matching those held by inocent law abiding people is a no no dont forget every person in this country is inocent of any crime until proved guilty and the onus of proving it relies with the police not the other way around

 

[tikkamuz]

Havn't heard of this in my area (Lothian and Borders)

NOthing in law that I am aware that states you must provide such a sample unles the police have their suspicions about you and obtain a search warrant.

Forensics examination nowadays can link a bullet to the barrel it was fired through or a spent case to the firing pin and chamber struations. I would suggest that this could be as part of the introduction of a national firearms database which would assist in the identification of weapons which have been stolen and or illegaly used. A recovered gun which has had its serial No removed could be identified or a recovered case or bullet could be linked to the gun and to the original theft enquiry. Of course it could also be used against poachers who fail to recover spent cases.

If this is the case however I would however question the fact they are asking for a sample and not as Claret Dabbler says, asking for your guns to obtain a ballistic sample from each. I would be seeking clarification before doing anything.

 

[Claret_Dabbler]

Philip, are you not on strike today?

Our mutual friend tells me she was freezing her ass off on the picket line at 6.00am today....

 

[Tamus]

Hi Jon,

Before deciding what to do you might want to consider this.

4. Obstructing a police officer
Under section 51 of the Police Act 1964 it is an offence to resist or wilfully obstruct a constable in the execution of his/her duty. This is widely used by the police at demonstrations. Wilful obstruction of a police officer means doing any act which makes it more difficult for the officer to carry out his/her lawful duty e.g. ignoring their instructions, stopping them doing something, dearresting someone or deliberately misleading them, or giving a false name and/or address. It has to be shown by the Prosecution that the police officer was acting in the execution of his/her duty, i.e. attempting to prevent breach of the law, and this can be very difficult to prove. There is no specific power of arrest for this offence, but the police may be able to rely on their 'general arrest powers'. This offence can only be tried in the magistrates court. There is a maximum sentence of one month in prison or a fine of £1,000. A more determined attempt to mislead could result in a charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice

 

[Orion]

............... there is nothing to stop you just picking up a case at the range and sending it in to them and if you'd any concerns at all about your rifle being involved in something this is exactly what you'd do.

Just hope that the bloke using the firing point before you wasn't an armed robber or working part-time for the mob!

Seriously though, I don't think any right-thinking FAC/SGC holder should comply with this request. It's just so easy for this kind of thing to set a precedent. A different matter if, say, a certain calibre/make of easily identifiable firearm had been used locally in a crime - then a localised request might have some credence. This just smells.

 

[JAYB]

Do you belong to BASC or one of the other organisations? Get them to get onto GMP to sort it out, seems a touch on the ridiculous side to me. I take it that if they want brass / casings for elimination purposes then they must have something to compare them to. If so is it a SG, CF, Rf or what sounds very suspicious, some sort of fishing expedition.

John

 

[csl]

I've not heard of this before either. Personally I'd want more information. For example, if it was a specific investigation into poaching on land over which I had previously (and lawfully) shot it would be reasonable to request (and agree) to provide samples of cases so they can eliminate any cases I might have left behind from those of the poachers.

However, if it was simply a data collecting exercise I think I'd be less inclined to cooperate without knowing how the information was to be used.

Alex

 

[Orion]

Wilful obstruction of a police officer means doing any act which makes it more difficult for the officer to carry out his/her lawful duty e.g. ignoring their instructions, stopping them doing something, dearresting someone or deliberately misleading them, or giving a false name and/or address.

Nothing lawful about them wanting to take possession of your private property, (without it being involved in the commission of a crime and required as evidence), unless authorised by way of a warrant though.

 

[Orion]

.......................If so is it a SG, CF, Rf or what sounds very suspicious, some sort of fishing expedition.

Or maybe someone in GMP FLD is a keen homeloader and wants some brass on the cheap!

 

[Tamus]

Nothing lawful about them wanting to take possession of your private property, (without it being involved in the commission of a crime and required as evidence), unless authorised by way of a warrant though.

Fair comment. So, ask them if they have a warrant... if you feel like going into the nuts.

 

[Orion]

Fair comment. So, ask them if they have a warrant... if you feel like going into the nuts.

No need - no request forthcoming from D&C. If it does arrive by letter I'll ignore it or write asking for more details. If they were stupid enough to knock on the door, (sans warrant), they'd be told where to go. I might be viewed by some sectors of society as a second class citizen because I possess firearms, but I'll be damned if I'm going to act like it.

 

[Mannlicher_Stu]

Hi Jon,

Before deciding what to do you might want to consider this.

4. Obstructing a police officer
Under section 51 of the Police Act 1964 it is an offence to resist or wilfully obstruct a constable in the execution of his/her duty. This is widely used by the police at demonstrations. Wilful obstruction of a police officer means doing any act which makes it more difficult for the officer to carry out his/her lawful duty e.g. ignoring their instructions, stopping them doing something, dearresting someone or deliberately misleading them, or giving a false name and/or address. It has to be shown by the Prosecution that the police officer was acting in the execution of his/her duty, i.e. attempting to prevent breach of the law, and this can be very difficult to prove. There is no specific power of arrest for this offence, but the police may be able to rely on their 'general arrest powers'. This offence can only be tried in the magistrates court. There is a maximum sentence of one month in prison or a fine of £1,000. A more determined attempt to mislead could result in a charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice

That may be but a spent rifle case belongs to someone and is a valuable item ,you are not obstructing the law by refusing to part with a possesion that belongs to you and it needs a court order to seize any materials or possesions