I've been asked by GMP to submit sample cartridge casings - anyone else been asked?
- Thread starter jon2
- Start date
It would have cost a lot less if you hadn't had bothered in the first place. How can the cost be zero to shooters? I believe we are all tax payers.
All this seems to do in my opinion is underline all that Sir Philip Green has outlined in his review of government spending. In these days of austerity measures the public sector should be run by proven businessmen and not institutionalised bureaucrats.
I note you haven't yet offered any statistics to support your claim for the need of this procedure.
Kind regards,
Tim
Orion
Well-Known Member
&
I can see a lot in both of these posts with which I agree - particularly the highlighted item in the first.
How many previously lawfully held firearms are subsequently used in crime after being stolen? Is there at the moment any data on this? Would the authorities like to have this data available if it is not already being collated?
This scheme could well be the trial means for such data to be collected.
Wouldn't it present those who wish to make a case against the individual possession of firearms at home with a big boost for their position?
Anyone else think the shooting community might be being lined up to beat themselves with a big stick? Again!
Blimey! I've never known a police force have a representative post on a forum. Good on you GMP!
I for one think that this is a good idea. I will be putting a case from each of my guns to one side next time they are fired. If one is stolen then that is great evidence that the gun is yours even if the numbers have been overstamped.
Now, who is in the GMP area and has recently had a grumble about the time a variation has taken or perhaps not having a requested quarry listed? I bet you're s***ting yourselves now?!
I wish my force were here too. I actually think it's good to see a bit of mixing between the pen pushers and ground workers.
I for one think that this is a good idea. I will be putting a case from each of my guns to one side next time they are fired. If one is stolen then that is great evidence that the gun is yours even if the numbers have been overstamped.
Now, who is in the GMP area and has recently had a grumble about the time a variation has taken or perhaps not having a requested quarry listed? I bet you're s***ting yourselves now?!
I wish my force were here too. I actually think it's good to see a bit of mixing between the pen pushers and ground workers.
jon2
Well-Known Member
Njc
I am presuming you have just got in from the pub.
Why on earth would anyone be sh***ng themselves as you put it after applying for any additional alteration to a condition with GMP?
GMP are actually one of the best licensing authorities for timely returns and v professional conduct.
However, this request has not been thought through and is utterly pointless.
We do however live in a country where freedom of speech is not a crime (not yet anyway).
I am presuming you have just got in from the pub.
Why on earth would anyone be sh***ng themselves as you put it after applying for any additional alteration to a condition with GMP?
GMP are actually one of the best licensing authorities for timely returns and v professional conduct.
However, this request has not been thought through and is utterly pointless.
We do however live in a country where freedom of speech is not a crime (not yet anyway).
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8x57
Distinguished Member
While I am law abiding and normally very supportive of the police having worked very closely with two police forces in an enforcement role for a number of years, I cannot agree with GMP on this initiative and would suggest that shooters think this through to its entirety before willingly signing up to this scheme. I spoke to three serving officers last night, all very active shooters, and none had heard of any similar schemes operating in the U.K. All three could see no benefit to this scheme for various legal and technical reasons and only potential very serious problems to the shooter in a worse case scenario.
RickoShay
Well-Known Member
This is a collaborative and common sense request. What it does highlight though is the need for shooters to build a relationship with their FET. FAC/SGC applications are one of the few occassions when an individual will be 'working with' the Police and is not either a victim or an offender. We would not have shooting without the support of the Police, but we would have Police without shooting - strong relationshsips here seem to be nothing but a good idea - and look how balanced the Cumbria report was, it could have been a lot worse. MY FIO visited yesterday (MPS) he was a true gentleman, an experienced and enthusiastic hunter and really keen to support the rifles I requested. I'd to speak him without hesitation about any shooting related matter, this has to be a good thing. Well done GMP.
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Si
Well-Known Member
Guys, all this fuss over nothing.... I read the letter last night and thought it was a good idea, if one of my guns was stolen and used in an armed robbery I would want to do all I could to help the police find the culprits.
Reading the letter didn't at any point make me think I was being accused of anything, in fact quite the opposite. It is a way for us the shooting community to offer some co-operation with the firearms licencing unit and to show members of the public that we are doing all we can to reduce crime involving firearms. And let's face it, most of us have fired cases lying around the place anyway.... the FLD's are only asking us to keep them in a safe place.
Inevitably questions will arise, like "what if the fired case has been re-loaded several times?" or as stated previously that the firing pin could have been replaced. The answer is to collect a newly fired case after any alterations to your rifle. The case will be fireformed to the last gun it was used in.
Reading the letter didn't at any point make me think I was being accused of anything, in fact quite the opposite. It is a way for us the shooting community to offer some co-operation with the firearms licencing unit and to show members of the public that we are doing all we can to reduce crime involving firearms. And let's face it, most of us have fired cases lying around the place anyway.... the FLD's are only asking us to keep them in a safe place.
Inevitably questions will arise, like "what if the fired case has been re-loaded several times?" or as stated previously that the firing pin could have been replaced. The answer is to collect a newly fired case after any alterations to your rifle. The case will be fireformed to the last gun it was used in.
8x57
Distinguished Member
I can't agree with you as regards a common sense request. Think it all the way through and also await a full legal opinion from the national bodies after considdered legal consultation. Ultimately you could be providing evidence against yourself in a third party claim.
I have a good working relationship with my local firearms department and agree that good communication can only be mutually beneficial. I also like the idea of various forces posting information on this site as they monitor it anyway they may as well register and post. But I for one will not be volunteering for this one.
I have a good working relationship with my local firearms department and agree that good communication can only be mutually beneficial. I also like the idea of various forces posting information on this site as they monitor it anyway they may as well register and post. But I for one will not be volunteering for this one.
jon2
Well-Known Member
Si
With respect you are missing the point.
The exercise is pointless.
Licensed firearms are almost never used in armed crime. The stat will prob be along the lines of .001% or such like. I know it is a minimal percentage as pre the handgun ban the police trotted out that armed crime was x percent but when pushed for a breakdown of the statistic 99% of the guns used were illegally held.
So even if your view is yes I will comply, in practice it will never come into effect in a real life situation.
How many legally held guns are actually stolen? I admit the statistic will be higher than used in crime but even that is tiny - think about it.
Then you have the other implications to consider as have been highlighted by others.
With respect you are missing the point.
The exercise is pointless.
Licensed firearms are almost never used in armed crime. The stat will prob be along the lines of .001% or such like. I know it is a minimal percentage as pre the handgun ban the police trotted out that armed crime was x percent but when pushed for a breakdown of the statistic 99% of the guns used were illegally held.
So even if your view is yes I will comply, in practice it will never come into effect in a real life situation.
How many legally held guns are actually stolen? I admit the statistic will be higher than used in crime but even that is tiny - think about it.
Then you have the other implications to consider as have been highlighted by others.
What I said yesterday was tongue in cheek, I was joking!
Some of you are taking this far too seriously I feel. What's the harm in keeping a fired case? If the gun is stolen you could provide it to the police and they could use it to match up to cases found at crime scenes which would help them build a profile on the gun/criminal. Don't think bank robbery here, but perhaps major poaching. Do you think all the pikies that go round lamping Deer have secure storage in their caravans and have been approved FAC's? No, they probably shoot a rifle they've pinched out of someones car!
I also don't see why so many people think that this could get them in trouble? Ok you would be part of the enquiry but I doubt very much they would try to pin anything on you. If you were guilty would they really expect you to have saved a case so they could prove you guilty?!
Some of you are taking this far too seriously I feel. What's the harm in keeping a fired case? If the gun is stolen you could provide it to the police and they could use it to match up to cases found at crime scenes which would help them build a profile on the gun/criminal. Don't think bank robbery here, but perhaps major poaching. Do you think all the pikies that go round lamping Deer have secure storage in their caravans and have been approved FAC's? No, they probably shoot a rifle they've pinched out of someones car!
I also don't see why so many people think that this could get them in trouble? Ok you would be part of the enquiry but I doubt very much they would try to pin anything on you. If you were guilty would they really expect you to have saved a case so they could prove you guilty?!
Si
Well-Known Member
It probably is pointless Jon, but where's the harm in saving a few spent cases if it could help do some good in the future. The way I see it is if I were suspected of anything untoward or one of my guns was used illegally for whatever reason, the police would get a warrant to search my house to recover ballistic evidence anyway... so it would be much easier for all involved if I could just hand over a bag of old brass and be done with it, seeing as I'd be innocent 
Orion
Well-Known Member
Are you not already hearing the uninformed but vocal opinions being made by certain MPs and others against the storage of firearms in the home? It will no doubt be brought up in 'evidence' to the current firearms enquiry just as it was post Hungerford & Dunblaine - or are memories too short to remember what happened then?
All it takes is confirmation that one legally held but stolen firearm is linked to a high profile incident and you can all kiss goodbye to keeping your rifles at home - if indeed you are allowed to actually possess them at all.
It's been alluded to by other posters but don't forget that evidential 'accidents' and serious miscarrages of justice can and do happen - just google 'Guildford Four', 'Maguire Seven', 'Birmingham Six', 'Barry George', 'Colin Stagg', to name but a few, and think about how external/media pressure has and can influence the actions of some in the police service to 'get a result' - any result. Can't happen to you? Some other innocent people have in the past thought that to their cost.
All it takes is confirmation that one legally held but stolen firearm is linked to a high profile incident and you can all kiss goodbye to keeping your rifles at home - if indeed you are allowed to actually possess them at all.
It's been alluded to by other posters but don't forget that evidential 'accidents' and serious miscarrages of justice can and do happen - just google 'Guildford Four', 'Maguire Seven', 'Birmingham Six', 'Barry George', 'Colin Stagg', to name but a few, and think about how external/media pressure has and can influence the actions of some in the police service to 'get a result' - any result. Can't happen to you? Some other innocent people have in the past thought that to their cost.
Mannlicher_Stu
Well-Known Member
Thinking this through more clearly, what harm is the by keeping a fired case at one side as long as it remains in your possesion, until it may be needed to help the police.
As long as it remains in your possesion until such an event took place ( hopefully it dosent) but such information can only help investigation, my worry initialy was in the misleading postee who said that GMP wanted a fired case sending to them which i presume and it would be a good presumption that a balistic data base file was in the offing nationwide on individuals firearms, such information if it existed in that format is not acceptable and could be used against an inocent person inadvertantly. The police already have powers to sieze any firearms if they suspect them or person to be involved in or used in any crime. And the only information that i can see gained from this is matching the case to the gun or vice versa, it does not give any other information to them other than your gun was used in a particular crime or incedent.
Surely common sense tells us that by assisting police by giving them a spent case with all the evidence imediately there for them to analize very quickly they may have further leads that can link the theft to the incedent and bring the purpretator to account more quickly.
Having a fired case at home in your own possesion is not going to lead to a national data base being formed so i cant see in my view a problem in going with the request it can only better police/citizen relationship.
trouble is I have a terrible memory and if and when I have work done on my firearms i am more than likely to forget to save a new case at one side
but the idea in my view in principle is a sound one.
As long as it remains in your possesion until such an event took place ( hopefully it dosent) but such information can only help investigation, my worry initialy was in the misleading postee who said that GMP wanted a fired case sending to them which i presume and it would be a good presumption that a balistic data base file was in the offing nationwide on individuals firearms, such information if it existed in that format is not acceptable and could be used against an inocent person inadvertantly. The police already have powers to sieze any firearms if they suspect them or person to be involved in or used in any crime. And the only information that i can see gained from this is matching the case to the gun or vice versa, it does not give any other information to them other than your gun was used in a particular crime or incedent.
Surely common sense tells us that by assisting police by giving them a spent case with all the evidence imediately there for them to analize very quickly they may have further leads that can link the theft to the incedent and bring the purpretator to account more quickly.
Having a fired case at home in your own possesion is not going to lead to a national data base being formed so i cant see in my view a problem in going with the request it can only better police/citizen relationship.
trouble is I have a terrible memory and if and when I have work done on my firearms i am more than likely to forget to save a new case at one side
but the idea in my view in principle is a sound one.
The Farmer
Well-Known Member
Got one of these letters yesterday too.
Thar
Well-Known Member
Am I missing something here:?: But what good in practice will it do to help the police find the criminal that committed the offence?
OK your rifle/shotgun get stolen weeks/months/years latter it is used in a crime and the offender leaves a empty case behind, the police can now know 100% that it is a once legally owned firearm that once belonged to Mr. Smith or who ever, but if they couldn’t find the criminal while the trail was hot when he stole the weapon how does it help with finding him when he or the person he sold the weapon to commits the following offence.
Other than establishing a 100% link between once legally owned firearms and crime I can’t see the value. :?:
ATB
Tahr
OK your rifle/shotgun get stolen weeks/months/years latter it is used in a crime and the offender leaves a empty case behind, the police can now know 100% that it is a once legally owned firearm that once belonged to Mr. Smith or who ever, but if they couldn’t find the criminal while the trail was hot when he stole the weapon how does it help with finding him when he or the person he sold the weapon to commits the following offence.
Other than establishing a 100% link between once legally owned firearms and crime I can’t see the value. :?:
ATB
Tahr
