The story of the chicken and the egg or the cart before the horse....

[Big_Sparky]

Morning! Aside of my little intro post this is my first - so please be gentle! I’m looking for some advice as such as I’m feeling very confused about the best way forward. Just a brief bit of background if I can then hopefully my question will make sense. Born & bred in the North East of England, ex forces with lots of firearms experience and not a half bad shot (albeit with a left master eye which caused some fun in the early days) but effectively no hunting experience bar air rifle. Whilst living in the NE I planned to get into shooting in various forms - started the FAC process, bought a cabinet, took some advice etc but prior to physically putting my application in the post I was offered a new job that meant being away from home a lot and decided to put my shooting plans on the back burner (did I say brief? Sorry!!) So.... fast forward a few years and the wife and I have relocated to the west coast of Scotland, near Oban, for a complete change of pace of life - new job equates to more time off work than in work which is a win in my book!

Anyways - the cart before the horse question (the NE England intro was to explain that the advice I was given then was contrary to the info I have now - I fully appreciate different police forces etc interpret things differently). I’m lead to understand (from local firearms dealer and then a quick phone call and chat with a very pleasant and helpful lady in the firearms licensing office at Glasgow) that a booking or bookings to go stalking will not suffice as good reason for a deer legal calibre and that without permission to shoot over suitable ground - I’m banging my head against a wall. Shotgun element of FAC and a smaller calibre (I’m planning on 17HMR) shouldn’t be an issue as I do have permission from my landlord to shoot over his land - we rent a house on a small (60 odd acres) Croft. I appreciate I can pay to go on an organised stalk etc and use an estate rifle (although everything I’ve seen advertised does seem set up towards the more corporate end of the market - and, hey, fair play to folks they’re out to make a living!!) but how on earth would you/could you go about getting permission to shoot over someone’s land when, at the point of seeking permission, I wouldn’t have a FAC for the relevant weapon or any real experience? Or am I just really missing something?

Thanks in advance for any pointers and I appreciate that different areas have different answers so please don’t think I’ll angrily ring the firearms office back and start having a pop because my new online pal down south says x, y and z haha!

Finally, I’ll apologise in advance of all future posts..... even my text messages to mates are long winded -just be grateful I’m tapping on the iPad and not sat at a keyboard otherwise this world have been much longer

 

[kieran222]

It sounds like you might have to work round the problem. I think that if you get your FAC for the HMR you would stand a good chance of getting a deer legal caliber later. You could try and get permission to use your 17hmr for pest control on land that might have deer on it and then later ask the land owner if he would allow you to apply for a deer legal caliber for that piece of land.

 

[Big_Sparky]

It sounds like you might have to work round the problem. I think that if you get your FAC for the HMR you would stand a good chance of getting a deer legal caliber later. You could try and get permission to use your 17hmr for pest control on land that might have deer on it and then later ask the land owner if he would allow you to apply for a deer legal caliber for that piece of land.

Sounds like a sensible approach and if that has to be the way then so be it. Thanks

 

[nic531]

If you have a range nearby that you can shoot a deer legal calibre on, it may be easier to get the rifle and that go change of use, or by then you have somewhere to shoot and can evidence use of the calibre and permission.
If you want advice on the legal position, I have always found the firearms tram at BASC very helpful if a member or NRA as well.

Being ex forces, are there any training areas nearby that may have a garrison shoot set up that may give you an in (my old garrison shoot had preferential entry... serving first then ex the civilian staff then others. Also normally still reasonable prices if what I hear of Salisbury Plain is anything to go by.))

 

[Orion]

Are you a member of a shooting organisation? If not then SACS would be a good option to join prior to submitting any application.

As you're probably aware the HOG at 13.10 and 13.32 does advise that booked outings are an acceptable means of establishing 'good reason' to possess a firearm. Would it be possible to obtain a booking that contains a reference to the land to be stalked over? That may ease the way.

I wonder if any challenge has been raised over this type of refusal by an FLD, or have they managed to get the applicant to withdraw or simply talked them out of submitting in the first place? SACS would be able to advise, but join first before asking.

It's all very well different forces interpreting the HOG in their own ways but to ignore it completely may be another matter entirely bearing in mind the relatively new amendment contained in 55A(4) of the Firearms act 1968

 

[Big_Sparky]

If you have a range nearby that you can shoot a deer legal calibre on, it may be easier to get the rifle and that go change of use, or by then you have somewhere to shoot and can evidence use of the calibre and permission.
If you want advice on the legal position, I have always found the firearms tram at BASC very helpful if a member or NRA as well.

Being ex forces, are there any training areas nearby that may have a garrison shoot set up that may give you an in (my old garrison shoot had preferential entry... serving first then ex the civilian staff then others. Also normally still reasonable prices if what I hear of Salisbury Plain is anything to go by.))

Fair one! Still investigating on that side - so far there’s nothing locally that I’ve come across but certainly ranges and clubs within a few hours drive - the downside of living here is most things are within a few hours drive! I’ve emailed the most local clubs that have access to MOD ranges as a starting point and planning to head along to the local clay shooting club for their next open practise night to see if I can make some new contacts.

 

[Big_Sparky]

Are you a member of a shooting organisation? If not then SACS would be a good option to join prior to submitting any application.

As you're probably aware the HOG at 13.10 and 13.32 does advise that booked outings are an acceptable means of establishing 'good reason' to possess a firearm. Would it be possible to obtain a booking that contains a reference to the land to be stalked over? That may ease the way.

I wonder if any challenge has been raised over this type of refusal by an FLD, or have they managed to get the applicant to withdraw or simply talked them out of submitting in the first place? SACS would be able to advise, but join first before asking.

It's all very well different forces interpreting the HOG in their own ways but to ignore it completely may be another matter entirely bearing in mind the relatively new amendment contained in 55A(4) of the Firearms act 1968

Indeed! I did actually almost quote that line when I chatted to the lady in the FLD. Had been looking at organisations to join - BASC had been on the radar (including reading lots of views on here for and against them) but I’ll certainly look at SACS as well. Certainly seems best to have as much info and advice as possible to get the FAC application right.

 

[CarlW]

Agree with @Orion . I would get a shooting organisation to 'insist' on your behalf. Booked stalks is a perfectly good reason.

Good luck.

Kind regards,

Carl

 

[Big_Sparky]

Agree with @Orion . I would get a shooting organisation to 'insist' on your behalf. Booked stalks is a perfectly good reason.

Good luck.

Kind regards,

Carl

Yeah that seems like a good plan - I’ve joined SACS this afternoon so will have a crack with them. I’m usually very good at arguing technical issues having made a point of always reading the relevant t&c’s, regulations etc in advance, but I’m very conscious not to start out on the wrong foot with the FLD as I’d like to have them on my side.

Which does lead me to another question, if I may! If I applied for everything I’d like on my FAC application and they did knock back the larger calibre - do they knock back the whole application or just that particular calibre? Ie aside of whatever help/advice I can get on board - is there any harm in just having a go?
Cheers!

 

[Orion]

It would be a partial refusal - not the whole shebang. Any refusal can be appealed.

On your other point - don’t ask, don’t get.

 

[Big_Sparky]

Ha ha - indeed!

Well, I shall let you all know how I get on! Maybe I’ll leave a .50 Cal M82 off the list just for now though....

 

[Alantoo]

Is it impossible for any deer to come onto your landlord's croft? If they are included in the quarry he will give you permission to shoot, apply for both rifles. 60 acres is not too small...if it is flat flat then a high seat or other elevated position may help.

My most productive permission is one half of a 7 acre field on a 30 acre farm.

Alan

 

[Highlandsjohn]

Yeah that seems like a good plan - I’ve joined SACS this afternoon so will have a crack with them. I’m usually very good at arguing technical issues having made a point of always reading the relevant t&c’s, regulations etc in advance, but I’m very conscious not to start out on the wrong foot with the FLD as I’d like to have them on my side.

Which does lead me to another question, if I may! If I applied for everything I’d like on my FAC application and they did knock back the larger calibre - do they knock back the whole application or just that particular calibre? Ie aside of whatever help/advice I can get on board - is there any harm in just having a go?
Cheers!

Talk to sacs and get the correct info for your fac application in Scotland. JOHN

 

[Big_Sparky]

Is it impossible for any deer to come onto your landlord's croft? If they are included in the quarry he will give you permission to shoot, apply for both rifles. 60 acres is not too small...if it is flat flat then a high seat or other elevated position may help.

My most productive permission is one half of a 7 acre field on a 30 acre farm.

Alan

They certainly do Alan! Well, there’s deer scat around that suggests deer come right up to the house (albeit only when the ferocious chocolate lab is asleep.....) but I had assumed the land would be far too small - I’ll certainly chat to my landlord about that! He’s quite pro shooting and planning to introduce me to a few local shooters too.

 

[Big_Sparky]

Talk to sacs and get the correct info for your fac application in Scotland. JOHN

Thanks John - all joined up today so will get in touch with them.

 

[Orion]

Sounds as if you’re already sorted if you have deer on the land anyway!

 

[Outback]

Joining a Target shooting club even if it's a bit of a travel will get you a deer calibre rifle plus it is a bonus if you have a fac to start with , there has also been syndicates in your area advertised on here before so not all bad news .
The midgie ticks and forests full of flies are all worth it ……………...

 

[Big_Sparky]

Joining a Target shooting club even if it's a bit of a travel will get you a deer calibre rifle plus it is a bonus if you have a fac to start with , there has also been syndicates in your area advertised on here before so not all bad news .
The midgie ticks and forests full of flies are all worth it ……………...

I’ve contacted the two closest clubs I’ve found so far so hopefully get the ball rolling there too. Certainly seems that the more bases I have covered the better

 

[Big_Sparky]

Thanks for all the replies and advice gents - much appreciated

 

[Outback]

Have a search for ranger22 I think he's in your area .