Variations that don't get dealt with - inefficiency or conspiracy??

[foxdropper]

Is the office you deal with many miles away mate .Might be idea to make an appointment and talk face to face as well as hand him a letter for his files .Our Feo is very approacheable .Going to discuss humane despatch pistol soon in 32 cal .

 

[bowji john]

I've had a face to face relationships with previous FEO's but I do not know any of the new ones

It is approx an hour and a half drive to their offices

Was at my shooting club this morning and many people reporting long delays for renewals etc

I guess I'll cut them some slack for the moment

I don't mind waiting if they are genuinely snowed under but I hate to be f**ed around by office paper pushers

Too much of that in the modern world

 

[Frank Homes]

If you want to worry them, write to ask them to determine within the next 21 days or otherwise you'll have to appeal on the basis of non-determination (same as a refusal).

An interesting point but does non-determination apply to the Firearms Acts? I don’t think it does.

F

 

[Tf223]

An interesting point but does non-determination apply to the Firearms Acts? I don’t think it does.

F

It would do if you gave ample chance to determine, else they would never refuse a borderline application but just fail to determine with the benefit that nobody could appeal.

I think there is legal precedent that the court would set a appeal hearing on the basis on refusal (via non-determination) if you have given ample chance to determine and have evidence. You would want to gather evidence such as dates of submission, conversations, requests to process by X date, and established that they had all the info they needed I.e were not still investigating aspects.

I'm not a solicitor though, so would recommend seeking advice.

 

[Orion]

An interesting point but does non-determination apply to the Firearms Acts? I don’t think it does.

Interesting one.

D&C are currently quoting 100 days for an FAC grant and 57 days for a renewal, (they don’t quote for variations). If John’s ‘simple’ variation is outwith the 57 day average I wouldn’t think it unreasonable to question why and (politely) to request it issued or refused and the reason if the latter applies.

BTW my variation for a 300BLK was held up in the works for longer than normal (5 days door to door for the last one-for-one) and I suspect for the same reason that they weren’t too sure what they were dealing with. Whereas the 9.3x62 sailed through - go figure!

 

[gonzo]

I just had a call from D&C, over a matter than was a few weeks old. With an appology that they have a backlog.
Though in my case, I've broken the system, with yet another unfamiliar situation, and trying to get their records back in line. So it's me assisting them this time.

 

[ChesterP]

I should think your letter John should stir a response but if you receive nothing formal within their stated response time (and a holding letter isn't good enough) then the next step would be a letter of complaint to the Chief Constable (the buck stops with them), CC'd to your PCC. After having something similar a good few years back, BASC did nothing to help me (I was a member) as they said they'd "given up" on the head of Firearms licencing in my area. Needless to say I didn't renew my membership after that. I spoke with the head of licencing and expressed my frustrations to be told that they had delayed my variation request as despite proving good reason, they still required "something more". I politely said that I was driving to the police HQ that afternoon with additional supporting evidence to support my variation and that I expected either to have my application processed (after 3 months of waiting) but if it wasn't processed or a formal reason for refusal presented, I'd take the matter further. When I arrived, I found my variation waiting for me. Sometimes you have to politely but firmly push things on.

 

[bowji john]

I have been advise that in my case the delays are quite deliberate

They do not wish to issue a variation for anything above 30 cal

Their tactic is to quite deliberately delay proceedings

I've been advised to expect a 'random' inspection as they hope to catch me out on some minor infraction

I've also been advised to leave them alone - not pester, as at some stage the delay will look bad on their stats (that they must report upon)

The woman who is dealing with my variation is apparently the worst there is at D & C for a reluctance to be helpful

Apparently our best weapons are logic, tight paper work and patience

I've been led to believe that quoting the HO guidance doesn't help as they are entitled to use it merely as guidance

Like in any negotiation it pays to understand the other sides motives and weaknesses (the monkey on their back) and play them accordingly

In my case it is impatience; in theirs it is the need to justify long delays to their superiors

Always keen to turn adversity to advantage, perhaps it is time to set up permanent guidance (based on personal experiences) to aid the unfortunate traveler ''heading east in search of knowledge''

Or in this case - trying to get their variations sorted

 

[stubear]

I know I'm preaching to the choir here but I dont understand how this is a negotiation?

Them "not wishing" to issue anything over .30 is total nonsense. They're not able to just make the rules up as it pleases them and if you have all your ducks in a row then it should be an open and shut case surely? I'm not saying we should be able to go outside the law with what we ask for but surely its not unreasonable to expect the FLO's to go along with what we are allowed to do?

Their job is to issue certificates based on good reason (which you clearly have in my view) and to ensure that you are not going to disturb the peace by them issuing it - thats it. Its not for them to determine whats "too big" (show me where in the Firearms act it mentions a maximum caliber...) or anything else. If you have good reason for a 9.3 then that should be that.

Personally I would raise a stink over this - If they look bad to their bosses then good! They should look bad because what they are doing goes against the guidance, the law and good service. And then adding on that you can expect random home checks as well - so thats passive aggressive pseudo-threats along with the lousy service then, that seems totally out of order as well!

I think this sort of thing is just totally unacceptable. I know we all want to have a good relationship with our FEO's because it makes the whole process of enjoying the sport we love so much more pain free but there does come a point when this sort of situation arises that making a fuss seems like the right thing to do.

I've always had a good relationship with Hampshire. They were suffering with some staff turnover and delays a few years back but seem to be far quicker now, and are very reasonable with the requests that I have submitted. I consider myself very fortunate.

 

[Yorric]

Hi John, you seem to be approaching the problem ok.
If you don't get a response to a written request within a reasonable time frame ( that you should advise them of in writing), Maybe it is time to escalate the matter by writing to the Chief of Police.
As a side comment - I would avoid mentioning that the 9.3 is good at smashing through undergrowth to the police.
The police are usually paranoid about collateral damage ballistics of that type.


Ian

 

[bowji john]

I will hasten to add that the warning of a visit was not from them - just a heads up from a knowledgeable RFD

Good point Ian !

 

[TH4]

If they come around to do a random inspection and it is not intelligence led, in which case they will have a warrant there is no need to grant them access unless you wish to. Ask them to come back when it suits you.

 

[Yorric]

John, if you ever get into an argument with the police regarding their 30 cal top limit, go prepared with some comparison muzzle energy values. (9.3 vs the 30 cal magnums which are more powerful).
I have a friend (in Hampshire) who was initially told no to his application for a 9.3x62. He hit them with the ME values & that helped them to see sense & he got his variation.

Ian

 

[bowji john]

Yup Ian - I will

Curiously I'm an RCO with the HME qual so have to do people's assessments for rifles of over 4000 ft lb muzzle energy and over prior to range shooting

9.3 sits at a comfortable 3500 ft lb so doesn't qualify as a high muzzle energy round

 

[Orion]

There really shouldn’t be any need to give them any further rundown on mv/me etc. as they’ll be fully aware of it all - plus John has, I believe, already supplied the FLD with plenty of supporting evidence, (and maybe more to come? ).

There are enough ‘big game’ rifles already on FACs in the region under AOLQ for them to know what is and isn’t acceptable. This sounds to be purely an attempt to wait the situation out in the hope that the applicant will give up and go away. I suspect there’s fat chance of that though!

 

[CarlW]

There really shouldn’t be any need to give them any further rundown on mv/me etc. as they’ll be fully aware of it all - plus John has, I believe, already supplied the FLD with plenty of supporting evidence, (and maybe more to come? ).

There are enough ‘big game’ rifles already on FACs in the region under AOLQ for them to know what is and isn’t acceptable. This sounds to be purely an attempt to wait the situation out in the hope that the applicant will give up and go away. I suspect there’s fat chance of that though!

Yes. John is quite annoying, isn't he...?

 

[macfarlane]

Police Scotland are saying just now a one for one variation will be done in a week, but if you want to change calibre it's a standard 16 weeks.

 

[bowji john]

As a side comment - I would avoid mentioning that the 9.3 is good at smashing through undergrowth to the police.
The police are usually paranoid about collateral damage ballistics of that type.
Ian

You have reminded me Ian of another conversation, not directly related to this situation, that gives an insight into how we are perceived

A couple of years ago I hosted an Advanced Trauma Management training day for all the D & C armed response teams here at the farm

One of the Sergeants in charge during the course of a conversation over lunch told me that they had been told (presumably by their training staff) that after terrorists, the next biggest potential risk group were ex mil SGC and FAC holders

What on earth are they teaching these kids????

On what planet do we represent a heightened risk ??????

 

[Orion]

On what planet do we represent a heightened risk ??????

West of the Tamar there might be something in it.

 

[zambezi]

As for the arguments for the caliber - they were well documented in a summary attached to the application

I started to reiterate those arguments to the FEO when he rang all those weeks ago

He stopped me saying that he'd never fired a rifle in his life so had no idea what I was talking about

He also questioned why folk such as he were being asked to make such judgments of behalf of the the Dept when they (he) clearly had no expertise to call upon

Devon and Cornwall FLD are taking over Dorset licencing jurisdiction in addition to their existing areas, and so there may be manpower/experience issues at play at the moment. Over the years, all my D&C paperwork has been processed without delay.

However, my last variation endured multiple referrals within the department before it was sanctioned, and then with swingeing restrictions that seemed to step outside of HOG wording. In ongoing conversation with D&C, I do find my calls being referred to ever higher adjudication.

I am inclined to be patient as I am sure that the recursive checking by more seasoned staffers is the mechanism by which the others will garner the knowledge they need to adjudicate/action more promptly in the future.