Any Legal Quarry ACPO reccomendations?

[remington65]

Hi lads,
I have just had a visit from my feo about my renewal and my application for 375 H&H, 357 pistol, all other legal quarry and to have wild boar and wild goats added to my ticket. This did'nt go down well at all.
I have given evidence of a booking to shoot goats and boar and a booking for africa. I have given them a piece of land to support the use in the uk for the 375 and 357 pistol.
He asked me to reconsider about the pistol as they don't usualy grant them and he said that there is no way they will grant all other legal quarry. He is considering the wild boar and goat and might add them.
I have just sent him a text after reconsiering the pistol to tell him i do want it and have a good reason for it.
Why should i bend for them when they don't for us?
atb
rem
Just recieved a reply to my text from the feo stating that he will not surport my application.

 

[Mannlicher_Stu]

This should be interesting

May I ask why you feel that a magnum pistol will be more proficient than a smaller calibre pistol?

I know its a matter of choice but why do you feel in necessary that you need a pistol when there are other and more practical methods of dispatching a wounded animal?

Regards
Stu

 

[remington65]

Becouse i can and becouse they don't want me to have it.
They could have played ball and gone part way to meeting my requirements. They did'nt and there does'nt seem like i can do anything about it but i am entitled to a pistol for humane dispatch as i can show good reason so i will have one.
I don't mind being kicked as long as i can kick back.
They like it just fine when they brow beat law abiding people into submission but dislike it when you go against there sometimes petty and unjust self law making. The more we give in to them the more they will take from us.

atb
rem

 

[flytie]

Becouse i can and becouse they don't want me to have it.
They could have played ball and gone part way to meeting my requirements. They did'nt and there does'nt seem like i can do anything about it but i am entitled to a pistol for humane dispatch as i can show good reason so i will have one.
I don't mind being kicked as long as i can kick back.
They like it just fine when they brow beat law abiding people into submission but dislike it when you go against there sometimes petty and unjust self law making. The more we give in to them the more they will take from us.

atb
rem

Amen!

ft

 

[Mannlicher_Stu]

Becouse i can and becouse they don't want me to have it.
They could have played ball and gone part way to meeting my requirements. They did'nt and there does'nt seem like i can do anything about it but i am entitled to a pistol for humane dispatch as i can show good reason so i will have one.
I don't mind being kicked as long as i can kick back.
They like it just fine when they brow beat law abiding people into submission but dislike it when you go against there sometimes petty and unjust self law making. The more we give in to them the more they will take from us.

atb
rem

Maybe the chief officer of police thinks that more than what your entitlement is that such may be achieved more safely by other means,and that safety in its use and transportation may be insufficient to members of the public, and refuse it on such grounds.
The fact that your entitled to it because i am ,is insuficient reason on its own.

Especially as there are more acceptable means of dispatching a wounded animal, ie downloaded ammunition that may suffice in lower velocity to exit the barrel, but with a surfiet of muzzel energy in the use of your rifle, or a single shot shotgun type weapon or captive bolt weapon.

In all honesty i have never felt the need to use a pistol and I used to own one a model 19 357 mag of which I could have retained it at the time of the pistol surrender scheme.
Further more if you are familiar with the weight of these particular firearms I can assure you they are somewhat heavy in their nature.

The security of such firearms of a pistol is greater, as its not a easy operation in removing the chambers as it is in making a rifle inoperable by bolt removal when not in use, it can be done but such is not easy and more chance of loosing spindles and pins from the crane
By taking a stance against the police in this matter because as you put it .
I am entitled and its my right and because I can is only going to create problems in such as stance against the police just for the hell of it.

Good Luck
I feel somehow your going to need it

Stu

 

[Dalua]

A mate recently had a renewal granted and at this point noted that his new certificate only covered deer (.243). He questioned this with the FLO (Lothians and Borders) and was assured that the shooting of deer was the primary reason for him being granted his FAC for .243 but in no way restricted him from shooting a lesser species. Seems sensible to me but does this mean you can only shoot the lesser species if you come across it while out stalking deer or does it mean that you can shoot any lawful quarry lesser to deer at any time. FLO states that you can shoot any lawful species lesser than deer at any time.

Interesting!
This might be regarded as heretical (or less pretentiously, wrong), but I have never actually understood how wording such as 'the .243 rifle, moderator and ammunition shall be used for shooting deer' could possibly be interpreted as meaning 'you have permission to use this rifle only for shooting deer'.

In fairness, some of mine have 'shall be used for...' and others have 'may be used for...', but neither of these even remotely suggests that the use should be limited to the activity mentioned.

The view of George Wallace given in (I think) the Sooting Times a while ago was that 'it is a tenet of British law that anything is allowed unless specifically prohibited'.

His view seemed to be that this tenet applies to FAC-conditions, which although they often invite you to use a rifle for some specific purpose, very seldom suggest that you are forbidden from any particular other use of it.

 

[Orion]

Becouse i can and becouse they don't want me to have it.
They could have played ball and gone part way to meeting my requirements. They did'nt and there does'nt seem like i can do anything about it but i am entitled to a pistol for humane dispatch as i can show good reason so i will have one.
I don't mind being kicked as long as i can kick back.
They like it just fine when they brow beat law abiding people into submission but dislike it when you go against there sometimes petty and unjust self law making. The more we give in to them the more they will take from us.

Rem,

You might be interested in the recent case of Savvas Toufexis - it's certainly rattled a few cages in police FLDs!

http://www.sportsmansassociation.co.uk/?page_id=230

http://www.shootingtimes.co.uk/news/451646/SAs_Toufexis_wins_44_magnum_appeal.html

 

[Gazza]

"Becouse i can and becouse they don't want me to have it."

This sounds a cracking reason to obtain and possess a .375 handgun.

To me this attitude only makes it more difficult for others.

 

[remington65]

Gazza and Stu,
I don't know what your force area is and i am not realy bothered but if you had had all the hassle over the years that i have with the petty minded feo's in my area then i am sure you would also kick back. I have stated quite clearly my good reason for the pistol to them which they can't refute. Do you not think that rolling over for them when they come up with a new whim makes life more difficult for others.
Another thing he said was that i would need to provide a letter from the syndicate captain/ leaseholder to state that i was a fully paid up syndicate member, this after i have provided written confirmation from the leasholder stating that i have permission to use all my rifles and pistol if granted on the syndicate land which total 4000 acres. Is this yet another unwarrented hoop for me jump through. He said that his office had contacted the lady of the estate and she had'nt heard of me. I don't know who they contacted if anyone at all but there is no bloody lady of the estate becouse there is no estate, its privately owned forrestry. Yet more needless ********.
As for other ways of dispatching deer, yes you are quite correct but i would'nt think of telling you how to dispatch a wounded animal and as such don't expect you to tell me how to do it. Becouse i don't want to do it this way or that it does'nt make it wrong and i beleive it is not ilegal to own a 375 pistol for humane dispatch so i want one for this purpose, although i might have relented if he had been more amenable to my other requests.
I to am of the belief that if it is not specifically forbidden then it is allowed but being in possesion of an fac makes you want to be sure that your on the right side of the law, it's just that some feo's make it difficult.
Orion,
thanks for that but i am familiar with this case and see it as a precedent and an quite sure this will be used should it need to go further. I have already written a letter of complaint with legal assistance as i knew most or all of my requested additions would be refused. I also intend writing to my mp who is a shooting man to ask why they keep funding these acpo meetings when my force ignores the advise of the chairman who is by far more qualified in these matters than my local force.
On with the tin hat i think

rem

 

[Gazza]

Sounds like your reason to obtain such a firearm is to prove a point rather than based on any necessity to possess. Improving your stalking/marksmanship may well lessen your requirement for a humane dispatch tool. IMO you need to look at your whole approach to FAC applications and then perhaps you will have less years of hassle. Genuine reason, genuine permission, a bit of realism and you will have no problems.

 

[Paul at Fechan]

Don't get me started.... I can use my .375 h&h in Europe but not the UK?? Like they didn't get the memo that the UK is part of Europe. I can shoot targets anywhere on 'suitable land' or 'ranges' with solids but nothing live because clearly shooting through a red with expanding ammo and a mountain as a backstop is far more dangerous.

Apparently, .375 is too powerful to shoot reds but the top dog says I can shoot rabbits with my .30 cal - yeh whatever

 

[remington65]

Sounds like your reason to obtain such a firearm is to prove a point rather than based on any necessity to possess. Improving your stalking/marksmanship may well lessen your requirement for a humane dispatch tool. IMO you need to look at your whole approach to FAC applications and then perhaps you will have less years of hassle. Genuine reason, genuine permission, a bit of realism and you will have no problems.

I said i have provided both good reason and genuine permission. You must shoot hundreds of deer eh if you have killed them all outright and never had to crawl under forrestry to retrieve a runner. I take it you use a moderator and if so that would be down to people like myself who would'nt roll over when refused. When i first asked for a moderator i got a resounding "no, we don't let you have them in this county", but we got there in the end. I also take it that you don't have an feo with a God complex.
Anyone who knows me would say that my attitude is spot on thanks but i also believe in speaking my mind and woudl'nt write anything that i would'nt say face to face.

 

[matt_hooks]

Gazza. The guidance specifically states that issuance of an FAC for a specific firearm should not be dependant upon "necessity" or "need". I.E. you do NOT have to prove "necessity" to prove reasonable cause to hold. On the flipside rem, it also states that "desire" does not equate to "reasonable cause to hold, so "I want one, so I should have one" is not a good enough reason to issue...

The issue of a pistol on an FAC has somewhat stronger requirements in terms of security, due to the portability, ease of concealment and desirability to criminals, but again that's something that they should be discussing with you, so you can meet their requirements (or at least negotiate a mutually agreeable solution).

Of course, the firearms licencing departments are not governed by common sense, nor are they bound to the HO or ACPO guidance. They are free to impose conditions as they see fit. The fact that there is no right of appeal to conditions (short of judicial review) doesn't help the shooter who feels he is being manipulated, or unfairly restricted.

 

[Mannlicher_Stu]

Gazza and Stu,
I don't know what your force area is and i am not realy bothered but if you had had all the hassle over the years that i have with the petty minded feo's in my area then i am sure you would also kick back. I have stated quite clearly my good reason for the pistol to them which they can't refute. Do you not think that rolling over for them when they come up with a new whim makes life more difficult for others.
Another thing he said was that i would need to provide a letter from the syndicate captain/ leaseholder to state that i was a fully paid up syndicate member, this after i have provided written confirmation from the leasholder stating that i have permission to use all my rifles and pistol if granted on the syndicate land which total 4000 acres. Is this yet another unwarrented hoop for me jump through. He said that his office had contacted the lady of the estate and she had'nt heard of me. I don't know who they contacted if anyone at all but there is no bloody lady of the estate becouse there is no estate, its privately owned forrestry. Yet more needless ********.
As for other ways of dispatching deer, yes you are quite correct but i would'nt think of telling you how to dispatch a wounded animal and as such don't expect you to tell me how to do it. Becouse i don't want to do it this way or that it does'nt make it wrong and i beleive it is not ilegal to own a 375 pistol for humane dispatch so i want one for this purpose, although i might have relented if he had been more amenable to my other requests.
I to am of the belief that if it is not specifically forbidden then it is allowed but being in possesion of an fac makes you want to be sure that your on the right side of the law, it's just that some feo's make it difficult.
Orion,
thanks for that but i am familiar with this case and see it as a precedent and an quite sure this will be used should it need to go further. I have already written a letter of complaint with legal assistance as i knew most or all of my requested additions would be refused. I also intend writing to my mp who is a shooting man to ask why they keep funding these acpo meetings when my force ignores the advise of the chairman who is by far more qualified in these matters than my local force.
On with the tin hat i think

rem

interesting as i have never seen a 375 calibre pistol have you any piccies must be huge
Just done a search on google for one bloody Hell really is this what you want to carry round better you than me.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcyXUemcCpY

 

[Gazza]

Matt I take your point as regards necessity/reasonable cause but as an individual applying for whatever firearm, if you can show a genuine necessity for that firearm , reasonable cause takes care of itself. Because I can, because it's not illegal, because I want one are not necessity or reasonable cause, particularly when you are wiling to trade of your application for such a firearm if other requests are met.

I have always found that working positively with your FEO/firearms licensing dept brings a far better understanding/relationship regarding your individual applications and ultimately better results.

Like most deer managers I know I have been shooting deer for many years. Never really found the need and therefore the reasonable cause for a FAC firearm to dispose of wounded beasts (apart from the rifle I shot it with in the first place) but knowing me and what I do, I am confident if I went to my licensing Dept with a genuine requirement to possess a handgun of a realistic calibre to dispatch wounded deer I would get it.

 

[matt_hooks]

Gazza, totally agree with you, "I want one" is not reasonable cause to hold (as the second half of my first paragraph said). A .357 mag is totally OTT for humane dispatch of any British species, unless you've found a herd of wild elephants in the UK? A 9mm would be far more realistic, I know several deer managers and farmers who hold those on FAC for humane dispatch. If you approach the firearms licencing guys with a pugnacious attitude, then they will be awkward. It's not necessarily right, but it's human nature. If you approach them in a reasonable manner, you are far more likely to get what you ask for!

Of course there comes a point where their unreasonable behaviour means that you need to take a stand, but pick your fight carefully!

 

[Dalua]

Interesting.
To get a variation, you have to show that you have a good reason to possess that firearm. To apply for a variation, you have to the volition to possess such a firearm.
I'd say good reason and wanting one are both required.

The last revolver I saw that was held for humane dispatch was a .357mag. You then have the option of using .38Spec if you think .357Mag ot 'OTT', but really pistols are unimpressive power-wise compared to a .410 shotgun, let alone to deer-rifles. I'd say .357 would be quite a good choice, not that I've ever used one to dispatch anything other than 25yd targets.

 

[stag1933]

A local stalker uses a Smith and Wesson .38 special, more than enough for purpose.
In the old days of pistols and target shooting I bumped off a few with my Browning .22 match pistol.

HWH.

 

[finnbear270]

.38 special, ported barrel, can be held close in to skull, or off aways, end of, but I don't need or "want" one!

 

[bewsher500]

jesus, only been away two days and this thread certainly warmed up a bit.

I dont get why you jump on someone just because he wants something on his FAC, regardless of what it is. I fully applaude anyone who is prepared to take the time and exert the energy and spend the cash to challenge mindless bureaucracy.

I pistol is a pistol, whether it be a 38, a 357 or a 9mm. (personally I have never had to dispatch anything that could be dispatched by the rifle I was carrying at the time, carrying another 6lb weight on my hip is not of interest!).

I asked for a four calibre sako quad to be added to my FAC, .22lr, .22WMR, .17M2, .17HMR.
Now in my heart of hearts I know that there is absolutely no practical requirement for me to have all four. none. at all.
2 of those at best would do the job of all four put together. but that didn't stop me pushing for them.
one of my reasons was even the financial benefit of getting all four in a nice travel case and the potential resale value being higher if the box contained its full compliment.
The fact that you can buy all four is reason enough IMO.

Granted with some "discussion" but no real issue. (Lothian and Borders)

I use all four to varying degrees and am delighted that I now have them.

still keen to hear of anyone who knows anything of any other person being prosecuted for shooting something outside of the FAC restriction.