Härkila Weather System Versus Gore-Tex

Pedro

Well-Known Member
I see that Härkila have started using their own waterproof/breathable membrane in some of their kit. The most expensive stuff, it seems, uses Gore-Tex and the less expensive lines use their Härkila Weather System.

The question, of course is whether the Härkila alternative is any good and how does it stack up against the Gore-Tex stuff in practice? Can anyone shed any light?
 
So.…….(tumbleweed drifts past) never mind. Their stuff is, whatever they use to make it waterproof and breathable, somewhat expensive.
 
not sure about comparing the latest harkila with gore tex, however the old original harkila was hard wearing durable and very well made,, the newer stuff has been getting a bad rap lately as cheap china made inferior quality, seams falling apart, boots leaking and poorly made, but the prices keep rising. £50 for a £1.99 made in china baseball cap is taking the pee.
 
I have a Harkila set that is almost 10 years old that has been used pretty much weekly and is still in good operational use. I will probably cry the day the zip goes.

Like everything these days they dont make things like they used to - everything is built to a cost to maximise margin.
 
I had Seeland stuff before

Seeland Keeper jacket and trousers and Seeland Poncho

Seeland jacket and trousers were OK ish in the wet but not 100% and felt wet even when they weren't. The pockets literally fell off and the outer shell of the keeper started looking tatty within a year. Eventually after about two years and waiting an AGE to get repairs under warrentee when I needed it most, I got rid.

The Seeland Poncho is fantastic at packing small and keeping me dry but being very water proof its a bit of a sauna suit. Used it as a ground sheet many times and still going strong. But the design of the front chest pocket is absolutely baffling? The flap is too small to properly cover the pocket so the pocket literally fills up with water when it rains???? I overcome this by pushing it inside out in the rain. Looks stupid but at least I stay dry. Whoever designed the poncho has never used one in the rain in his life.

Having heard good things about Harkula Pro Hunter, I spent big on a Pro Hunter X jacket. That does appear to be water proof but again the pocket flaps are too small but as long as your pockets are empty it doesent cause a problem. Stuff a pair of gloves in there and they will fill up.

After less than a year of use, both pockets fell off. Didnt bother with the warrantee this time, just took it to a local seamstress to get repaired in three days rather than six weeks and they have been fine since

In comparison my old Barber jacket which cost half what the Prohunter X cost, is about 25 years old. Still waterproof when waxed regularly and the pockets are still firmly atached
 
Pro hunter stuff has got steadily worse over the years. 1 jacket and 3 pairs of trousers all went back under warranty. I have one of the newer image cammo jackets (about 4 years old) now and it's been fine, but it has a goretex liner, not their own. A new pair of trousers (last year) have been a disappointment in waterproofness. Personally, I'd look elsewhere......
 
waterproof/breathable membranes are rated by the amount of holes punched in the membrane.

there are a number of different testing protocols in use, but most involve the equivalent of placing a 1” x 1” square tube over the fabric and determining how high (in millimeters) a column of water you can suspend over it before it starts to leak. i suspect there own range has less holes which is cheaper to buy in
 
Time for a rant. I hate misinformation.

I made and continue to make the best foul weather clothing in the world. I've done it for 35 years and there are not many better qualified than me to talk about it, so here are some facts.

There are two basic types of breathable membrane, microporous and hydrophilic. Microporus are indeed full of holes (pores), like Gore Tex. Hydrophilic move moisture through the membrane by chemical transfer, like Dermizaz - used by Kuiu. There are good and bad microporous and good and bad hydrophilic. Hydrophilic is cheaper to make so the lower end of the market tends to me mainly hydrophilic.

Gore Tex is a bicomponent membrane, expanded PTFE gives the base microporous component and a hydrophobic/oleophobic coating prevents contamination of the pores. Gore Tex is the most durable option on the market today. When I meet with companies like Toray and ask them for a product to match Gore durability for me to test in the Southern Ocean they run for the hills.

However, there are 5 or 6 different grades of Gore Tex. They have three membranes, Gore Tex Infinium, Gore Tex Pro "Most Breathable" and Gore Tex Pro "Most Durable". There is then what you laminate the membrane to in order to give it the protection it needs. Drop liners are the most delicate form and are used as an interlining between an outer fabric and an lining. 2 Layer fabrics have the membrane laminated to an outer shell. This is more durable than a drop liner but there is still no protection against abrasion on the inside of the membrane. 3 Layer fabrics sandwich the membrane between an outer shell and an inner shell, giving it the best protection possible.

You then have the question of what you use as a fabric for an outer shell. You can have a nice quiet knitted shell fabric that is inherently weak, or a nice light weight woven 40 gram shell that is great for walking or biking and keeping the pack weight down. At the other end of the spectrum is a a super durable heavy shell that is built like a brick out house and will not tear or abrade but is heavy and often too noisy for stalking. You choose your laminate depending on the end use...and the price - which is the rub.

Make a shooting garment with a light weight drop liner and take it to the woods, climb over barbed wire fences etc and you're asking for trouble. But it will be a bit cheaper or more profitable if sold at the same retail price. It's the specification the manufacturer decides on that decides the qualities of the garment. Specify it properly and make it properly and Gore Tex will be the best that money can buy - get it wrong and it will fail like anything else.

As for the comments on Chinese manufacturing being of poor quality, it's simply untrue. Why do brands like Arcteryx, Mountain Equipment, Kuiu, Musto, make in China? Because the quality is better than we can now get elsewhere. They sew straighter, cut more accurately and have invested in the technology to make product better and more consistent.

Companies go wrong in China because their systems, controls, specifications and quality inspections are not good enough. You can't nip into the factory and check things every morning any more. The Chinese follow instruction better than anyone else in the world but if you don't specify exactly what you want they will use the quickest and simplest method to get the job done which is often not the best. Companies often go out to save money and do so by allowing the use of local fabrics for trims, zips, linings etc which again is usually a mistake and leads to product failures. Do the job properly and you will get stunning product. Do it badly and your quality will fall off, but it's not the fault of the Chinese, it's the inexperience or greed of the manufacturer that's to blame.

I'm working on a new project at the moment. My first call was to a factory in China. Our specifications are 12 pages long, there are a further 20 odd pattern piece artworks going with each spec and before they even start on the first sample my production manager will spend a week going through every detail with them making sure they understand everything. There will probably be 3 iterations of samples while we fine tune and test the product and when it comes to bulk manufacture we will have someone on site for the whole production run doing QC on site as product goes down the line. No less that we did when we had our own factories in the UK.

Would I buy Harkila today? No. Their choice of Gore Tex membranes is not the most durable and from what I hear they have not made the transition to far east production very well. I now buy Kuiu and Sitka, Kuiu being a very high performance Hydrophilic membrane - the best available from Japan and 3 layer laminated to robust but quiet shells, and Sitka being Gore Tex fabrics being constructed in the same way. Where are both manufactured? China. But they have done it right.

Rant over.
 
Time for a rant. I hate misinformation.

I made and continue to make the best foul weather clothing in the world. I've done it for 35 years and there are not many better qualified than me to talk about it, so here are some facts.

There are two basic types of breathable membrane, microporous and hydrophilic. Microporus are indeed full of holes (pores), like Gore Tex. Hydrophilic move moisture through the membrane by chemical transfer, like Dermizaz - used by Kuiu. There are good and bad microporous and good and bad hydrophilic. Hydrophilic is cheaper to make so the lower end of the market tends to me mainly hydrophilic.

Gore Tex is a bicomponent membrane, expanded PTFE gives the base microporous component and a hydrophobic/oleophobic coating prevents contamination of the pores. Gore Tex is the most durable option on the market today. When I meet with companies like Toray and ask them for a product to match Gore durability for me to test in the Southern Ocean they run for the hills.

However, there are 5 or 6 different grades of Gore Tex. They have three membranes, Gore Tex Infinium, Gore Tex Pro "Most Breathable" and Gore Tex Pro "Most Durable". There is then what you laminate the membrane to in order to give it the protection it needs. Drop liners are the most delicate form and are used as an interlining between an outer fabric and an lining. 2 Layer fabrics have the membrane laminated to an outer shell. This is more durable than a drop liner but there is still no protection against abrasion on the inside of the membrane. 3 Layer fabrics sandwich the membrane between an outer shell and an inner shell, giving it the best protection possible.

You then have the question of what you use as a fabric for an outer shell. You can have a nice quiet knitted shell fabric that is inherently weak, or a nice light weight woven 40 gram shell that is great for walking or biking and keeping the pack weight down. At the other end of the spectrum is a a super durable heavy shell that is built like a brick out house and will not tear or abrade but is heavy and often too noisy for stalking. You choose your laminate depending on the end use...and the price - which is the rub.

Make a shooting garment with a light weight drop liner and take it to the woods, climb over barbed wire fences etc and you're asking for trouble. But it will be a bit cheaper or more profitable if sold at the same retail price. It's the specification the manufacturer decides on that decides the qualities of the garment. Specify it properly and make it properly and Gore Tex will be the best that money can buy - get it wrong and it will fail like anything else.

As for the comments on Chinese manufacturing being of poor quality, it's simply untrue. Why do brands like Arcteryx, Mountain Equipment, Kuiu, Musto, make in China? Because the quality is better than we can now get elsewhere. They sew straighter, cut more accurately and have invested in the technology to make product better and more consistent.

Companies go wrong in China because their systems, controls, specifications and quality inspections are not good enough. You can't nip into the factory and check things every morning any more. The Chinese follow instruction better than anyone else in the world but if you don't specify exactly what you want they will use the quickest and simplest method to get the job done which is often not the best. Companies often go out to save money and do so by allowing the use of local fabrics for trims, zips, linings etc which again is usually a mistake and leads to product failures. Do the job properly and you will get stunning product. Do it badly and your quality will fall off, but it's not the fault of the Chinese, it's the inexperience or greed of the manufacturer that's to blame.

I'm working on a new project at the moment. My first call was to a factory in China. Our specifications are 12 pages long, there are a further 20 odd pattern piece artworks going with each spec and before they even start on the first sample my production manager will spend a week going through every detail with them making sure they understand everything. There will probably be 3 iterations of samples while we fine tune and test the product and when it comes to bulk manufacture we will have someone on site for the whole production run doing QC on site as product goes down the line. No less that we did when we had our own factories in the UK.

Would I buy Harkila today? No. Their choice of Gore Tex membranes is not the most durable and from what I hear they have not made the transition to far east production very well. I now buy Kuiu and Sitka, Kuiu being a very high performance Hydrophilic membrane - the best available from Japan and 3 layer laminated to robust but quiet shells, and Sitka being Gore Tex fabrics being constructed in the same way. Where are both manufactured? China. But they have done it right.

Rant over.

I don't see your post as a rant or misinformation, but reinforcing what I stated in post #3. regarding harkila specifically, :thumb:
 
I don't see your post as a rant or misinformation, but reinforcing what I stated in post #3.

I'm not reinforcing the "cheap china made inferior quality" comment in post #3. It's simply not true. Harkila have specified it cheaply or badly. The Chinese can make fantastic product if it's specified correctly.
 
I'm not reinforcing the "cheap china made inferior quality" comment in post #3. It's simply not true. Harkila have specified it cheaply or badly. The Chinese can make fantastic product if it's specified correctly.

I never stated china can't make a good product,, but inferred harkila had chosen,,to lower the standard/quality in search of greater profits, something that others have backed up with their evaluation comments of current harkila products.
good quality fit for purpose products will generally be sought after wherever they are made, but if the price increases at the same time the quality decreases it will soon loose favour among its customer base, especially when better products including those you mentioned are available.
for example; how long do you believe blaser rifles would last if suddenly after becoming known for smooth action and fine accuracy, they turned out poorly specified rifles that were the opposite but cost the same or more?
 
I never stated china can't make a good product,, but inferred harkila had chosen,,to lower the standard/quality in search of greater profits, something that others have backed up with their evaluation comments of current harkila products.
good quality fit for purpose products will generally be sought after wherever they are made, but if the price increases at the same time the quality decreases it will soon loose favour among its customer base, especially when better products including those you mentioned are available.
for example; how long do you believe blaser rifles would last if suddenly after becoming known for smooth action and fine accuracy, they turned out poorly specified rifles that were the opposite but cost the same or more?


I'm glad we have that straight Riddick. That's not the way post #3 read but I'm glad that's what you really believe.
 
waterproof/breathable membranes are rated by the amount of holes punched in the membrane.

there are a number of different testing protocols in use, but most involve the equivalent of placing a 1” x 1” square tube over the fabric and determining how high (in millimeters) a column of water you can suspend over it before it starts to leak. i suspect there own range has less holes which is cheaper to buy in

Gore-tex is rated at 28000
Harkila weather system is 22000
As far as I can remember. The standard for most waterproof fabric is 20000.

Higher the number better it is.
 
Gore-tex is rated at 28000
Harkila weather system is 22000
As far as I can remember. The standard for most waterproof fabric is 20000.

Higher the number better it is.

Aha, something that endeavours to answer the question I was asking in the beginning. Thank you. (Although all the other posts are interesting).
 
I'm glad we have that straight Riddick. That's not the way post #3 read but I'm glad that's what you really believe.
no problem sir, I often post and wonder why it doesn't always convey my true intent. I'm old and this written word is really quite problematic to me as someone who has spent many years talking to faces a few feet away, now its all texting and emails,, I'll persevere, and thank you for your patience. :thumb:
 
Gore-tex is rated at 28000
Harkila weather system is 22000
As far as I can remember. The standard for most waterproof fabric is 20000.

Higher the number better it is.

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

"Waterproof can be claimed at a 3,000mm waterhead. However, wash it 5 times or wear it for a while and it will drop to about 1,500mm which will leak when you sit on it.

10,000mm is a reasonable place to start and last a while, gold standard is over 20,000mm. Gore Tex will stay waterproof until the fabric bursts which is dependant on the strength of the shell it is laminated to. Dermizaz NX is rated 20,000 which is what Kuiu use.

The other major is breathability. A fabric might well be 30,000mm, but if breathability is poor you will get as wet on the inside as if it leaked like a sieve if doing any sort of exercise (like climbing a hill or dragging a beast). Breathability of Gore Tex is around 20,000 gr/m2/24hr which is good. Dermizaz is about the same and gets better the more humid it is.

However, there are different test methods and one manufacturers scale will rarely be the same as the next so there's really no substitute for experience and field testing. Run the tests in an inverted cup and you will get a different result to an upright cup. Run them at an ambient temperature of 10 degrees and the result will be different to an ambient temperature of 25 degrees.

I look for a rating of 20,000 plus waterproofing and 20,000 plus breathability in a fabric. Then field test it or listen to the experience of others and make sure the marketing departments are not telling porky pies (which they tend to do).
 
Lies, damned lies and statistics...

"Waterproof can be claimed at a 3,000mm waterhead. However, wash it 5 times or wear it for a while and it will drop to about 1,500mm which will leak when you sit on it.

10,000mm is a reasonable place to start and last a while, gold standard is over 20,000mm. Gore Tex will stay waterproof until the fabric bursts which is dependant on the strength of the shell it is laminated to. Dermizaz NX is rated 20,000 which is what Kuiu use.

The other major is breathability. A fabric might well be 30,000mm, but if breathability is poor you will get as wet on the inside as if it leaked like a sieve if doing any sort of exercise (like climbing a hill or dragging a beast). Breathability of Gore Tex is around 20,000 gr/m2/24hr which is good. Dermizaz is about the same and gets better the more humid it is.

However, there are different test methods and one manufacturers scale will rarely be the same as the next so there's really no substitute for experience and field testing. Run the tests in an inverted cup and you will get a different result to an upright cup. Run them at an ambient temperature of 10 degrees and the result will be different to an ambient temperature of 25 degrees.

I look for a rating of 20,000 plus waterproofing and 20,000 plus breathability in a fabric. Then field test it or listen to the experience of others and make sure the marketing departments are not telling porky pies (which they tend to do).

Thoroughly interesting read from somebody who obviously knows their shizer!
 
Time for a rant. I hate misinformation.

I made and continue to make the best foul weather clothing in the world. I've done it for 35 years and there are not many better qualified than me to talk about it, so here are some facts.

There are two basic types of breathable membrane, microporous and hydrophilic. Microporus are indeed full of holes (pores), like Gore Tex. Hydrophilic move moisture through the membrane by chemical transfer, like Dermizaz - used by Kuiu. There are good and bad microporous and good and bad hydrophilic. Hydrophilic is cheaper to make so the lower end of the market tends to me mainly hydrophilic.

Gore Tex is a bicomponent membrane, expanded PTFE gives the base microporous component and a hydrophobic/oleophobic coating prevents contamination of the pores. Gore Tex is the most durable option on the market today. When I meet with companies like Toray and ask them for a product to match Gore durability for me to test in the Southern Ocean they run for the hills.

However, there are 5 or 6 different grades of Gore Tex. They have three membranes, Gore Tex Infinium, Gore Tex Pro "Most Breathable" and Gore Tex Pro "Most Durable". There is then what you laminate the membrane to in order to give it the protection it needs. Drop liners are the most delicate form and are used as an interlining between an outer fabric and an lining. 2 Layer fabrics have the membrane laminated to an outer shell. This is more durable than a drop liner but there is still no protection against abrasion on the inside of the membrane. 3 Layer fabrics sandwich the membrane between an outer shell and an inner shell, giving it the best protection possible.

You then have the question of what you use as a fabric for an outer shell. You can have a nice quiet knitted shell fabric that is inherently weak, or a nice light weight woven 40 gram shell that is great for walking or biking and keeping the pack weight down. At the other end of the spectrum is a a super durable heavy shell that is built like a brick out house and will not tear or abrade but is heavy and often too noisy for stalking. You choose your laminate depending on the end use...and the price - which is the rub.

Make a shooting garment with a light weight drop liner and take it to the woods, climb over barbed wire fences etc and you're asking for trouble. But it will be a bit cheaper or more profitable if sold at the same retail price. It's the specification the manufacturer decides on that decides the qualities of the garment. Specify it properly and make it properly and Gore Tex will be the best that money can buy - get it wrong and it will fail like anything else.

As for the comments on Chinese manufacturing being of poor quality, it's simply untrue. Why do brands like Arcteryx, Mountain Equipment, Kuiu, Musto, make in China? Because the quality is better than we can now get elsewhere. They sew straighter, cut more accurately and have invested in the technology to make product better and more consistent.

Companies go wrong in China because their systems, controls, specifications and quality inspections are not good enough. You can't nip into the factory and check things every morning any more. The Chinese follow instruction better than anyone else in the world but if you don't specify exactly what you want they will use the quickest and simplest method to get the job done which is often not the best. Companies often go out to save money and do so by allowing the use of local fabrics for trims, zips, linings etc which again is usually a mistake and leads to product failures. Do the job properly and you will get stunning product. Do it badly and your quality will fall off, but it's not the fault of the Chinese, it's the inexperience or greed of the manufacturer that's to blame.

I'm working on a new project at the moment. My first call was to a factory in China. Our specifications are 12 pages long, there are a further 20 odd pattern piece artworks going with each spec and before they even start on the first sample my production manager will spend a week going through every detail with them making sure they understand everything. There will probably be 3 iterations of samples while we fine tune and test the product and when it comes to bulk manufacture we will have someone on site for the whole production run doing QC on site as product goes down the line. No less that we did when we had our own factories in the UK.

Would I buy Harkila today? No. Their choice of Gore Tex membranes is not the most durable and from what I hear they have not made the transition to far east production very well. I now buy Kuiu and Sitka, Kuiu being a very high performance Hydrophilic membrane - the best available from Japan and 3 layer laminated to robust but quiet shells, and Sitka being Gore Tex fabrics being constructed in the same way. Where are both manufactured? China. But they have done it right.

Rant over.
Really interesting post, Nigel. Thank you.
Kind regards,
Carl
 
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