6.5mm recommendations

[ejg]

So Muley, a cartridge is not a pressure Vessel? In that case time is wasted. Just make the wall sections willy nilly to any thickness one wants or? Why does anyone bother to set pressure limits for a cartridge... why not set pressure limits for a rifle type, action type.??? Where is the CIP pressure limit for a Remington action? Mauser action etc?
Now lets crank up the 30-30 to 308 level and see what happens.
Some people should not be allowed to load cartridges.
edi

 

[Muley]

So Muley, a cartridge is not a pressure Vessel? In that case time is wasted. Just make the wall sections willy nilly to any thickness one wants or? Why does anyone bother to set pressure limits for a cartridge... why not set pressure limits for a rifle type, action type.??? Where is the CIP pressure limit for a Remington action? Mauser action etc?
Now lets crank up the 30-30 to 308 level and see what happens.
Some people should not be allowed to load cartridges.
edi
[/QUO

Ok. Crimp the bullet tight on one of your cartridges and then strike the primer. I will guarantee you that the casing will split or separate in all manner of ways. Why? Because it is not meant to be a pressure retaining vessel. The chamber is what contains the pressure. Funny how muzzle loaders and the early breach loaders never had any cartridges or at most paper cartridges. Some people should definitely not be allowed to load anything but maybe the dishwasher.

 

[Muley]

Just to add to the above. Even the brass companies don't keep the same internal case dimensions even in their own product. Check internal capacity on some brass and you will find many differences. As far as pressure limits are concerned the makers build their chambers for the specific cartridges to the specs needed to handle the pressures of those cartridges when fired. How long do you think a gun maker would be in business if they produced firearms that exploded when fired? Most actions are built to handle pressures up to and above expected pressures. In this way multiple chamberings are possible in the same action. Barrels can be swapped and or rechambered and still be within the expected pressure ranges encountered.

 

[ejg]

Muley, load away, looks like you have it sorted.

 

[NigelM]

Muley, just as a matter of interest, why is it that the 30-338 Lapua is SAAMI rated at 68kpsi and the 30-30 at 42k psi? Is it just the action/barrel strength? If so, if you loaded a 30-30 in an action/barrel designed to take a 30-338 Lapua would you be happy to load it to 68k psi?

Or is it something to do with case design. Web/head strength and their ability to withstand the pressures without fracturing within the chamber? Shoulder angle and case stretch?

Or is it all a load of BS and do CIP and SAAMI not know what they're talking about?

 

[Muley]

Muley, just as a matter of interest, why is it that the 30-338 Lapua is SAAMI rated at 68kpsi and the 30-30 at 42k psi? Is it just the action/barrel strength? If so, if you loaded a 30-30 in an action/barrel designed to take a 30-338 Lapua would you be happy to load it to 68k psi?

Or is it something to do with case design. Web/head strength and their ability to withstand the pressures without fracturing within the chamber? Shoulder angle and case stretch?

Or is it all a load of BS and do CIP and SAAMI not know what they're talking about?

If I had a chamber designed to take those kinds of pressures and it was chambered for the 30-30 mentioned I'd have no problem shooting it. The problem would be case capacity and a powder that could reach those pressures. I'm sure that some fast burning powders could get to those pressures but I doubt performance would be very good. I would bet that similar tests have been done in laboratory conditions just to see what the effects would be. Wild catting is much the same principal but probably never to those extremes. I doubt anyone would want to waste their time and money on such an idea when there are much better possibilities. And to answer your other question. Yes it is because of chamber strength which is made up of action/barrel.

 

[NigelM]

If I had a chamber designed to take those kinds of pressures and it was chambered for the 30-30 mentioned I'd have no problem shooting it. The problem would be case capacity and a powder that could reach those pressures. I'm sure that some fast burning powders could get to those pressures but I doubt performance would be very good. I would bet that similar tests have been done in laboratory conditions just to see what the effects would be. Wild catting is much the same principal but probably never to those extremes. I doubt anyone would want to waste their time and money on such an idea when there are much better possibilities. And to answer your other question. Yes it is because of chamber strength which is made up of action/barrel.

Thanks for the explanation Muley.

Just so I'm clear, you're saying that SAAMI and CIP don't know what they're talking about?

 

[Sako75Hunter]

Even some factory loads can deliver reasonable performance and excellent accuracy. I chrono'd the Sako Powerhead II 120gr offering for the Swede at 2740fps. That delivers 1800J at 200m. More importantly, the projectile is still doing more than the 2000fps required for the Barnes bullet to expand satisfactorily at that distance [just].

This is interesting to me as the above is the exact cal and round I use for deer. I'm guessing the logical conclusion is that they're best used only out to 200m? I've never needed to go beyond around 150m yet, but this would be useful to know in case it did arise.

 

[Muley]

Thanks for the explanation Muley.

Just so I'm clear, you're saying that SAAMI and CIP don't know what they're talking about?

Never said anything like that. SAAMI specs are guidelines for products being sold and used under their jurisdiction. They come up with their SAAMI pressures by testing those products and decide what the weakest of the products being sold or manufactured are. They set their pressures to match. SAAMI set their spec on the 6.5x55 Swede at 51,000 psi due to a failure of an action in a type of rifle that was being used by many people at the time. They kept it low to make sure that it didn't happen again as there were still lots of this particular rifle in use and for sale. In Europe they allowed for up to 56,000+ PSI for the same cartridge based on the stronger actions they were using. The idea that an action built for high pressures can't be shot at higher pressures than SAAMI specs is ridiculous. If an action can be used for 300wm pressure then it can also be used for 6.5X55 at 300WM pressure etc. It's not the cartridge that decides the specifications it's the action. All the modern rifles are tested at much higher pressures than the limits put forth by SAAMI or C.I.P. A Swedish Mauser by design is considered weaker than a German 98 Mauser as the Swede has only two locking lugs while the 98 has three. I have no problem loading higher pressure 6.5X55 loads in my 98 style actions because I know the action can handle it. I also don't try to load overly high pressure loads because I like to use my brass several times just like any other calibers I load for. I don't hold back to anemic loads because SAAMI says so. I also don't push my loads past usefulness because I have other rifles to pick up where the Swede left off. Just adding more powder does not mean better performance. Just one more point I want to make. I have identical actions on a couple of 6.5X55 as I do on my 264WM and the pressures are quite different but not dangerous. From now on please don't presume to know what I said unless I actually say it.

 

[6pt-sika]

After all isn't the trick to stalk into a deer and not to take the shot at 300+ yrds.

Stalk to within 300 yards ? Heck I’ve never shot one at 300 yards and only a dozen or so over 200 . The average yardage for the 300+ I’ve killed in my lifetime is 42 yards . Now that should tell you right away I don’t need a 26 Nosler , but it isn’t about need but rather WANT . Heck I had one or two seasons that I killed over a dozen deer each year and the average yardage for the whole season on deer I shot at and killed was under 25 yards . Bear in mind that’s archery muzzle loader and gun combined .

 

[ejg]

Never said anything like that. SAAMI specs are guidelines for products being sold and used under their jurisdiction. They come up with their SAAMI pressures by testing those products and decide what the weakest of the products being sold or manufactured are. They set their pressures to match. SAAMI set their spec on the 6.5x55 Swede at 51,000 psi due to a failure of an action in a type of rifle that was being used by many people at the time. They kept it low to make sure that it didn't happen again as there were still lots of this particular rifle in use and for sale. In Europe they allowed for up to 56,000+ PSI for the same cartridge based on the stronger actions they were using. The idea that an action built for high pressures can't be shot at higher pressures than SAAMI specs is ridiculous. If an action can be used for 300wm pressure then it can also be used for 6.5X55 at 300WM pressure etc. It's not the cartridge that decides the specifications it's the action. All the modern rifles are tested at much higher pressures than the limits put forth by SAAMI or C.I.P. A Swedish Mauser by design is considered weaker than a German 98 Mauser as the Swede has only two locking lugs while the 98 has three. I have no problem loading higher pressure 6.5X55 loads in my 98 style actions because I know the action can handle it. I also don't try to load overly high pressure loads because I like to use my brass several times just like any other calibers I load for. I don't hold back to anemic loads because SAAMI says so. I also don't push my loads past usefulness because I have other rifles to pick up where the Swede left off. Just adding more powder does not mean better performance. Just one more point I want to make. I have identical actions on a couple of 6.5X55 as I do on my 264WM and the pressures are quite different but not dangerous. From now on please don't presume to know what I said unless I actually say it.

I hope Saami & CIP are listening in, they could learn a few things here. Muley how about writing a loading manual, recon what is there is now obsolete.
edi

 

[zambezi]

This is interesting to me as the above is the exact cal and round I use for deer. I'm guessing the logical conclusion is that they're best used only out to 200m? I've never needed to go beyond around 150m yet, but this would be useful to know in case it did arise.

I am now struggling to find the Barnes statement that ttsx projectiles require 2000fps for full expansion [pretty sure that is the right number though]. But I did find the load data Barnes supply for the 6.5x55mm, plus that offered by Vihtavuori. Interestingly, Barnes supply two other bits of info useful to reloaders: (1) We recommend seating these bullets .050″ off the lands {rifling} of your rifle. (2) You do not have to seat the bullet at, or on one of the cannelure rings.

Helpfully, there is a video on YT that tests reduced velocity and its effects on ttsx expansion and even the incomplete expansion projectiles would be lethal if placed correctly.


Edit: found an email from a Barnes tech on one of the forums confirming the 2000fps required for full expansion:

 

[tomblincoe]

Back to the OPs actual question!

For £1K (does this include the scope and mod or not?) you will struggle to achieve most of the suggested rifles. Either keep a look out for a secondhand Sako 75/85, Tikka T3 etc or look at one of the more budget rifles if you need to some of that to buy glass.

I have a browning X-bolt in 6.5x55 which I picked up for under £500 as an ex-demo rifle (I think it was just handled at game fairs etc rather than shot). Got the barrel and action cerakoted (it was blued) and haven't looked back. As some have said with factory ammo and a 20inch barrel you will get velocities of about 2400fps with a 140gr bullet. That will certainly kill a deer cleanly but isn't strictly speaking legal.

Opt for a longer barrel or look at home loads (or one of the 120gr factory offerings.) I home load the excellet 123gr fox monolithic/lead-free bullets and they do 2750fps from my 20inch barrel and certainly do the business on fox, muntjac and fallow.

ATB

Tom

 

[ejg]

On this thread I have learned that a cartridge case is not a pressure vessel. Only the design of the rifle is responsible for how much pressure can be loaded to.
Wonder why these guys did not listen to our thread here and all it's superior knowledge of some.
The new high pressure SIG Fury 6.8 case design. They still believe that the case is a pressure vessel... fools. Maybe someone can write them a letter....

edi

 

[glasshalffull]

I never liked the 6.5 Swede. it might have been a good cartridge 100 years ago but now we have moved on. Swede only runs 3800 bar in the high pressure CIP Data vs CIP 4350 bar of the Creedmoor which will certainly make a 20" hunting rifle work better than the Swede.
If one wants a reliable 10 shot mil type magazine for a 6.5x55 it looks something like this. Even that does not feed great. The 6.5x55 is neither long nor short action.

vs a ten shot mag for a Creedmoor.

I know most on here seem to shoot single shot rifles but if one wants to shoot multiple deer then 7-10 rounds in a mag makes sense. Can also double as PRS rifle

For me the only reason to get any 6.5 was that Hornady made some good bullets and that coupled with good factory ammo for the 6.5 Creedmoor. That is why I chose it over the Euro 6.5x47.
edi

Huh?? Got a 6.5x55 for the low recoil. Never have had an issue with bullet feed with my Sauer magazine. Wouldn't ever use single shot rifle for deer myself, what do you do when the deer gets up which happens everyone who shoots any amount of deer I don't care what they're using caliber wise. Always taught to cycle another round after the shot. Have shot all species of UK deer with my Swede with no issues out to 250yrds. For myself the skill is to get as close as possible to the deer (aka stalking) isn't that the name of the game? Never loaded my own cartridges stick to factory 140grn Feds and 120grn Norma. 6.5x55 may have been around a long time but it's a proven deer calibre is it not and with low recoil what's not to like?