Shooting Ptarmigan/Grouse with a rifle

[User00040]

Hi all,

Don't have access to ground with either species, but keen to hear your thoughts on the following.

1- Is it legal to hunt them with a rifle? Shot on the ground not on the wing obviously.

2- Has anyone done this in the UK? Seen some Scandinavians like THLR doing it. Looks interesting.

3- What chambering/calibre? I'm thinking 22lr or 223

Cheers.

 

[JMikeyH]

As far as I understand it's legal to use a rifle but I think you might be restricted if using a semi .22 to using 2+1 rounds chambered like in a sect2 shotgun. The bit I've read is as follows

"You can’t use:

a firearm that can hold more than 2 rounds of ammunition in the magazine (such as an automatic or semi-automatic weapon)
artificial lighting
a sighting device for night shooting, or a device for lighting up targets"

Other than that, use what you want I think

Are you intending to pluck and use the whole bird or take the breasts off separately?

I've used a 17hmr for some smaller birds but shot placement was important not from a humane standpoint because hitting a wood pigeon or similar with a 17 anywhere centre mass or up kills it immediately, but from a meat standpoint. I always tried to shoot them in the back, this way the frangible round broke up on the back and the inside of the sternum tended to catch the lead fragments.

 

[JMikeyH]

I'll also add I've seen THLR's videos on that, I think he was using a 17 fireball? Maybe a 22 fireball. Either way it looked superb without being destructive of the carcass

 

[VSS]

I've never been able to get my head around the daft business of making gamebirds fly before shooting them. It makes perfect sense to stalk them and shoot them on the ground with a 22lr (or to knock them out of the trees at dusk with a 410 ). A much more ethical and humane way of going about it, in my opinion.

 

[BryanDC]

An old colleague of mine lived in Greenland for some time and he used a 22lr a lot for ptarmigan. Apparently it was the only bird meat he could get that didn't taste like fish. He also said they were a bit stupid and tended to sit tight, especially in winter, so were relatively easy targets.

 

[levigsp]

I have shot all the grouse with rifle abroad, all with shotgun in UK. When in Rome do as the Romans do, I would NEVER entertain shooting them on the ground here in the UK and if people were allowed to, there would soon vanish.

 

[JMikeyH]

I have shot all the grouse with rifle abroad, all with shotgun in UK. When in Rome do as the Romans do, I would NEVER entertain shooting them on the ground here in the UK and if people were allowed to, there would soon vanish.

Sorry if I am misunderstanding something here but are people NOT allowed to in the UK? I don't mean in a traditionalist, shun-the-non-conformer way but in law

 

[levigsp]

Sorry if I am misunderstanding something here but are people NOT allowed to in the UK? I don't mean in a traditionalist, shun-the-non-conformer way but in law

No not at all law. It is however frowned upon in the Uk to shoot game bird with a rifle, so I don't. In parts of Europe or America its standard practice so I do it.

 

[JMikeyH]

Gotcha. Thought I'd been naughty taking a partridge last season

I completely get the fair chase argument, which is I think the primary justification of wing shooting. And a fair justification it is too. The argument is then of clean, fast kills on the ground with a suitable calibre rifle BUT then like you say there is too-high of an efficacy and if it starts being done on a large scale there could be population decline as we don't have bag limits for them. I suppose in this instance the ball is firmly in our court and we need to be grown up with our resource

 

[Apthorpe]

If you're the sort of person who'd shoot them on the ground, you might as well use .50BMG to save you the effort of picking them up.

Apart from the legality and it being totally unsporting, what's the point? It's not like we're overrun with ptarmigan or grouse.

 

[JMikeyH]

If you're the sort of person who'd shoot them on the ground, you might as well use .50BMG to save you the effort of picking them up.

Apart from the legality and it being totally unsporting, what's the point? It's not like we're overrun with ptarmigan or grouse.

For food? That is the reason we kill animals in the first place is it not? Or is it for sport? Why do YOU kill an animal? Don't be daft and insinuate that people who would shoot a game bird with a rifle for whatever reason, whether it be for a more ethical kill, a disdain of game shoots and the reputation of many game shooters for not taking birds home with them, or simply because an opportunity presents itself, that they are all people who have no desire to even eat the damn animal and may as well turn it into a pink mist to save hassle.

And lets talk about that legality then.

It is illegal to use:

• Any spring(e), trap, gin, snare, any electrical device for killing, stunning or frightening, or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying substance (or hook and line or muscle-relaxing agent – Northern Ireland only) so placed as to be calculated to cause bodily injury to any wild bird
• Any net, any baited board, bird-lime or substance of a like nature to bird-lime
• Any bow or crossbow
• Any missile which is not discharged from a firearm including any arrow or spear (Northern Ireland only),
• Any metal bar, axe, hatchet, cudgel, club, hammer or similar instrument (Northern Ireland only)
• Any explosive other than ammunition for a firearm.
• Any automatic or semi-automatic weapon against any bird except the Bird Pest Species listed on the general licences
• Any shotgun where the barrel has an internal diameter at the muzzle of more than 1¾ inches
• Any device for illuminating a target or sighting device for night shooting or any form of artificial light or any mirror or other dazzling device
• Any gas or smoke not covered any where else in this section, any chemical or wetting agent
• Any sound recording
• Any live animal or bird as a decoy which is tethered, secured by braces or other similar appliances, or which is blind, maimed or injured.
• Any mechanically-propelled vehicle in immediate pursuit of birds for the purpose of killing or taking.
• If you’re using a shotgun to shoot birds, the internal diameter of the shotgun can’t be more than 1.75 inches.

Right, so we've covered that it does not fall outside of the law.

So what is the point?
Whatever someone's point to it is, it has absolutely nothing to do with you so long as they are doing it for the right reasons, in this case clean kills and fresh wild meat. If you would rather go blasting with a shotgun then go ahead. If someone wants to shoot a bird for the most primal of motivations then you have no leg to try and cast judgement on that individual simply because you are a "sporting" gent.

We are treading into an area of conversation where it gets very muddy, and most modern-day game shooting in the traditional sense does not have strong footing to stand on. The last thing you should do here is question people's methods when it is as humane and clean as deerstalking, even if it is unsporting as you say. But lets be clear, the most important thing when killing is being respectful to the quarry and no undue suffering. Not stroking one's ego by being sporting, if that is achieved too then fair enough but that shouldn't take priority

 

[enfieldspares]

The keeper for one syndicate that I had a gun in used to go around on 31 January and/or 1 February and shoot the cock birds (pheasants) with a .22LR as it is better for the hens that they aren't beset by an over population of randy cocks and, of course, it keeps the feed bill lower during February and March and means that the hoppers also need filling less often. That he then himself and family ate them I'm sure was an additional (to him) benefit.

 

[Sash]

Combination guns are often used in Scandinavia and Eastern Europe precisely for this: my Brno has a .222 barrel under 12 bore. And the Sako rifle cartridge website and data sheets specify which rounds and bullets are recommended for (sitting) birds, especially Black Grouse and Ptarmigan. Interestingly, its their Speedhead bullets, which are FMJ. 50 grain is recommended for all the .22 Centrefires.

 

[VSS]

If you're the sort of person who'd shoot them on the ground, you might as well use .50BMG to save you the effort of picking them up.

Apart from the legality and it being totally unsporting, what's the point? It's not like we're overrun with ptarmigan or grouse.

It's about on a level with shooting at a deer that's broadside on at 100yds and totally unaware of your presence. Funny I don't often see that practice being condemned!

 

[Freeforester]

Looks like you'll continue not to have access to ptarmigan; just a reminder that at the turn of the 20th century there were blackgame to be found in every county in Britain, ptarmigan have a very fragile toehold on the high tops, and are more disturbed by hillwalkers and their loodse running dogs then ever. Thank goodness the keepers of such game here aren't so persuaded by your notion/interest, though I readily accept that things are different, both culturally and in terms of abundance in Scandinavia.

 

[Rhodesianjess]

Quite a few injured/ too tame to fly duck meet there end by 22, game dealer prefers them as no damage from headshot. Cock birds generally get their neck wrung when catching up for laying pen, assuming you're overstocked or they're injured.

 

[lochty]

I've got a Norwegian dvd about this. Can't understand a word of it, but the rifle looks like a 22 hornet.

 

[Border]

For red grouse ptarmigan Hazel hen 22LR upwards.
For blackgame and capercaillie most tend to use 6.5 or 30. Cal with fmj. A few enthusiasts use 6mm.

 

[Apthorpe]

For food? That is the reason we kill animals in the first place is it not? Or is it for sport? Why do YOU kill an animal? Don't be daft and insinuate that people who would shoot a game bird with a rifle for whatever reason, whether it be for a more ethical kill, a disdain of game shoots and the reputation of many game shooters for not taking birds home with them, or simply because an opportunity presents itself, that they are all people who have no desire to even eat the damn animal and may as well turn it into a pink mist to save hassle.

And lets talk about that legality then.

It is illegal to use:

• Any spring(e), trap, gin, snare, any electrical device for killing, stunning or frightening, or any poisonous, poisoned or stupefying substance (or hook and line or muscle-relaxing agent – Northern Ireland only) so placed as to be calculated to cause bodily injury to any wild bird
• Any net, any baited board, bird-lime or substance of a like nature to bird-lime
• Any bow or crossbow
• Any missile which is not discharged from a firearm including any arrow or spear (Northern Ireland only),
• Any metal bar, axe, hatchet, cudgel, club, hammer or similar instrument (Northern Ireland only)
• Any explosive other than ammunition for a firearm.
• Any automatic or semi-automatic weapon against any bird except the Bird Pest Species listed on the general licences
• Any shotgun where the barrel has an internal diameter at the muzzle of more than 1¾ inches
• Any device for illuminating a target or sighting device for night shooting or any form of artificial light or any mirror or other dazzling device
• Any gas or smoke not covered any where else in this section, any chemical or wetting agent
• Any sound recording
• Any live animal or bird as a decoy which is tethered, secured by braces or other similar appliances, or which is blind, maimed or injured.
• Any mechanically-propelled vehicle in immediate pursuit of birds for the purpose of killing or taking.
• If you’re using a shotgun to shoot birds, the internal diameter of the shotgun can’t be more than 1.75 inches.

Right, so we've covered that it does not fall outside of the law.

So what is the point?
Whatever someone's point to it is, it has absolutely nothing to do with you so long as they are doing it for the right reasons, in this case clean kills and fresh wild meat. If you would rather go blasting with a shotgun then go ahead. If someone wants to shoot a bird for the most primal of motivations then you have no leg to try and cast judgement on that individual simply because you are a "sporting" gent.

We are treading into an area of conversation where it gets very muddy, and most modern-day game shooting in the traditional sense does not have strong footing to stand on. The last thing you should do here is question people's methods when it is as humane and clean as deerstalking, even if it is unsporting as you say. But lets be clear, the most important thing when killing is being respectful to the quarry and no undue suffering. Not stroking one's ego by being sporting, if that is achieved too then fair enough but that shouldn't take priority

I'll try to deal with this detailed reply in order:
"For food?" Well now, let's look at that. It appears from what I read on here that a lot of people don't shoot for food, but for money, or for conservation or crop protection reasons.
I kill animals for a variety of reasons including pest control, conservation and because I enjoy it. I eat most of them, but it's not always the primary consideration.
We can ignore the advice of the Food Standards agency if we want, but the current advice is to discard all meat within 10cm of the bullet path; that doesn't leave much of either bird to eat. Everyone's dining choices are different, but I don't think I'd choose to dine off a species with a low population and which isn't thriving. I fully understand that there are plenty of people who want to eat the last bluefin tuna, or caviar from the last sturgeon on earth. I am not persuaded by the argument that such practices are ethical.
I know people shoot ptarmigan frequently in Norway and other parts of Scandinavia, but the populations there are orders of magnitude larger and the human population an order of magnitude lower.

In short, I'm aware of the legality, my point was that there is a distinction between legality and wisdom.

The most important thing when killing an animal is whether you're damaging the prospects of the species. Respect for the animal makes not a jot of difference to the animal- it's more of a figleaf for the hunter. It's entirely obvious if you compare a hunter who shoots a rabbit with total disregard for the animal or concern for its suffering, with a hunter who respectfully shoots a northern white rhino. I don't think many would consider the latter definitely more ethical than the former. Being sporting is not a case of stroking one's ego, rather the reverse; but unnecessarily using animals as target practice may be.

It may well be possible to ethically shoot a ptarmigan with a rifle, but I'd contend not in the UK and would point out that your comment entirely ignores any consideration of conservation.

 

[Klenchblaize]

I'm all for introducing the American Wild Turkey to our woods & meadows to permit hunting the critters with 40g cast bullets from a 22 Hornet and as one would any other thin skinned ground game. Until that day dawns I'll make do mopping up late season peasants with a 22LR.

K