Speed trap

[ndt man]

Question for the legally minded
Reading an artical in local news ( hants ).
A speed trap van manned by a civilian is parked up in a road with double yellow lines along the road. the van is parked on the grass verge a passing motorist stopped an pointed out the speed trap van was parked illegally.!! To which the operator said we have been parking here for a long time what's the problem ? ( Hants have said the van was parking illegaly )
question if the van is parked illegaly are any speeding fines valid.??
And no I haven't been caught speeding.

 

[FrenchieBoy]

It's an interesting question and there are many videos on Youtube where people have "questioned" (or even parked directly close to the camera vans so that they can not operate) operators of mobile speed traps about the legality of it. I don't know the answer but what I would say is that most drivers should be able to spot a mobile speed camera before they get "flashed"! The other (And more favourable) option is to stick within the speed limits imposed for any area! My Sat Nav will warn me of static speed cameras but does not warn of these "Mobile Speed Traps" so you pay your money and take your chances I guess!

 

[Essex stalker]

It's an interesting question and there are many videos on Youtube where people have "questioned" (or even parked directly close to the camera vans so that they can not operate) operators of mobile speed traps about the legality of it. I don't know the answer but what I would say is that most drivers should be able to spot a mobile speed camera before they get "flashed"! The other (And more favourable) option is to stick within the speed limits imposed for any area! My Sat Nav will warn me of static speed cameras but does not warn of these "Mobile Speed Traps" so you pay your money and take your chances I guess!

Use the waze app on your phone, its continually updated by drivers in real time, it warns you not only of static and mobile cameras but pot holes in the road, other hazards on the road such as broken down cars and calculates fastest routes to avoid traffic etc

 

[catzrob]

Question for the legally minded
Reading an artical in local news ( hants ).
A speed trap van manned by a civilian is parked up in a road with double yellow lines along the road. the van is parked on the grass verge a passing motorist stopped an pointed out the speed trap van was parked illegally.!! To which the operator said we have been parking here for a long time what's the problem ? ( Hants have said the van was parking illegaly )
question if the van is parked illegaly are any speeding fines valid.??
And no I haven't been caught speeding.

To clarify, it's an official speed trap just that the occupant is a civilian?

Or it's a speed vigilante?

 

[long_range_rob]

My understanding is that even a civilian working for the feds is not committing an offence so the fine would be legit. Same rules that allow the constabulary to use mobiles/radios whilst driving.

One rule for us........

 

[Sinistral]

the van is parked on the grass verge

Your words ... not on the highway, so everything else is irrelevant.

 

[kes]

The law states it MUST be a policeman in uniform who uses a hand held speed trap or a type approved device if not manned if a fine is to be processed via a NIP, so they can't levy a fine - its just a community speedwatch. They will write to the police if any motorist is above the speed limit and, depending on the degree of over speed, you will receive a letter advising caution in future and a then a fine if you offend in the prescribed manner - see above. In the worst case (many miles per hour over), the police will visit and verbally warn drivers.
It is also no excuse for a van to be parked illegally as the highway signs (lines) apply equally to the verge. They are committing an offence but since you cannot be fined there is no point in appealing but worth pointing out, as you did, the error of their ways.
Only a policeman can judge whether a car is an obstruction irrespective of signage which applies. In this case, I would mention it to the police and say it is not correct to note speed 'offences' whilst committing one yourself. Again though in this case an offence is only chargeable if carried out by an officer in uniform.

 

[ndt man]

To clarify, it's an official speed trap just that the occupant is a civilian?

Or it's a speed vigilante?

It was an official police speed trap van but they're manned by civilian police employes . The question is if its parked illegally can any speeding fines be legal.??
Or will there maybe a claims for there £60 back and points removed

 

[ColinJ]

I’m not aware of anything in the legislation of case law stating that a camera van has to be legally parked. It sounds like the old (false) argument that an arrest was unlawful if a police officer wasn’t wearing their hat.

 

[Broadarrow]

My understanding is that even a civilian working for the feds is not committing an offence so the fine would be legit. Same rules that allow the constabulary to use mobiles/radios whilst driving.

One rule for us........

the ''get out clause '' for using police hand held radios while driving - There are exceptions when using certain frequencies -

It is an offence to use a hand held mobile phone or an "interactive communications device", but there is an exemption for a two way radio which is designed or adapted -

• for the purpose of transmitting and receiving spoken messages; and
• operates on any frequency other than 880 MHz to 915 MHz, 925 MHz to 960 MHz, 1710 MHz to 1785 MHz, 1805 MHz to 1880 MHz, 1900 MHz to 1980 MHz or 2110 MHz to 2170 MHz.

There are Force instructions to officers / civilians that they should refrain from using hand held radios while driving ..hence the majority of marked police vehicles have a small push to talk button on the / near the steering wheel on a flexible stalk so that communications can be achieved without removing your hands from the steering wheel.Some vehicles have these located on the gears lever - dependent on design of the vehicle

 

[ColinJ]

My understanding is that even a civilian working for the feds is not committing an offence so the fine would be legit. Same rules that allow the constabulary to use mobiles/radios whilst driving.

One rule for us........

Same law for us and them. Road Traffic Act, it contains legal exemptions. Wait ‘til you find out police cars don’t need MOT’s.

(And before anyone jumps on my last comment, I am fully aware of the exemptions to MOT’s, and why they have them.)

 

[cjm1066]

We to local pub for lunch in August, 2 men at adjacent table having a meal, dressed in coporate outfits, both had a pint.

The were parked in front of us, Speed camera van, nice to earn a crust while having a meal and a pint

 

[Broadarrow]

The law states it MUST be a policeman in uniform who uses a hand held speed trap or a type approved device if not manned if a fine is to be processed via a NIP, so they can't levy a fine - its just a community speedwatch. They will write to the police if any motorist is above the speed limit and, depending on the degree of over speed, you will receive a letter advising caution in future and a then a fine if you offend in the prescribed manner - see above. In the worst case (many miles per hour over), the police will visit and verbally warn drivers.
It is also no excuse for a van to be parked illegally as the highway signs (lines) apply equally to the verge. They are committing an offence but since you cannot be fined there is no point in appealing but worth pointing out, as you did, the error of their ways.
Only a policeman can judge whether a car is an obstruction irrespective of signage which applies. In this case, I would mention it to the police and say it is not correct to note speed 'offences' whilst committing one yourself. Again though in this case an offence is only chargeable if carried out by an officer in uniform.

HAND HELD speed approved speed detection devices are used by police officers in uniform . These devices are dependent on the officer pointing and pressing a trigger at a vehicle they suspect of exceeding the speed limit. They are calibrated / checked prior to and after use EACH DAY and are subject to mammal calibration / service by the manufacturer or approved contractors / engineers. They display calibration sticker and each device is issued with a calibration certificate. The officer using the device must also record each daily calibration check - these can be used / produced at court in evidence . When a driver is stopped he/she is shown the display on the device ( speed /distance ) and is then subject to either being reported for summons / offer of fixed penalty or speed awareness course ( Most forces now adopt the Traffic Offence Report System where teh subject is given what appears to be a fixed penalty notice for speeding - this details all the options that may be available - BUT this report is then sent to the ''decision makers'' within the prosecutions dept of the particular police force who decide on course of action - which is dependent on the officers observations/ recorded evidence / previous driving history of the subject) The officer will caution and issue the driver with either a written or verbal Notice of intention of Prosecution at teh time of being stopped - That is why and helps can only be used by Police Officers.
Mobile Enforcement cameras are slightly different. They are operated by civilian staff yet before each daily use they are calibrated / checked for accuracy which must be recorded . They are operated slightly different in that they are set at a limit and operate automatically. Yes they are movable so that the operator can switch across lanes / directions but once locked onto a vehicle there is no trigger or manual activation . All information / evidence is then recored onto either DVD or a hard drive located within the vehicle which is then downloaded at end of the day. The sites where mobile vans are used MUST be checked and approved period to use. ( RISK / SUITABILITY etc ) and the gps location recorded. These are then published along with dates the vans are operating and is freely available to the public on individual police force websites .

 

[Broadarrow]

Same law for us and them. Road Traffic Act, it contains legal exemptions. Wait ‘til you find out police cars don’t need MOT’s.

(And before anyone jumps on my last comment, I am fully aware of the exemptions to MOT’s, and why they have them.)

exemption due to regular maintenance schedules in place...When I was driving certain vehicles it was every month or three thousand miles which ever came first - for a full service

 

[Namman]

the van is parked on the grass verge

Your words ... not on the highway, so everything else is irrelevant.

I wish the speed van was parked regularly in my local area.

 

[Broadarrow]

We to local pub for lunch in August, 2 men at adjacent table having a meal, dressed in coporate outfits, both had a pint.

The were parked in front of us, Speed camera van, nice to earn a crust while having a meal and a pint

was its a ''camera safety van'' / Police speed enforcement vehicle ? Reason I ask is that several large construction companies and highway mainentance co' employ companies with camera vans to enforce limits on their staff ...I saw two on the A1 this summer in South Yorkshire

 

[kes]

It was an official police speed trap van but they're manned by civilian police employes . The question is if its parked illegally can any speeding fines be legal.??
Or will there maybe a claims for there £60 back and points removed

Good question.
I would ask the Police.
AFAIAC if the van is type approved and the van recorded an image and a speed which is then interpreted by a police officer - I would think it is legal.
Police civilians do NOT have police powers unless community police officers and then they dont have full powers either.
The answer is not straightforward - I would ring the police as an inquiry say it was illegally parked and plain clothes operatives and then say how can the readings be valid.
I once had a similar problem and the fallout of a non type approved layout would have meant returning a LOT of fines but the POLICE had to act according to the law and potentially return a lot of money - the error was advertised and NOBODY asked for their fine back - it was assumed they knew they were speeding and let it go.
If you let it go you will never know.
Sorry to misinterpret the last time.

 

[Broadarrow]

I wish the speed van was parked regularly in my local area.

contact the police ..raise the issue of speeding ....the more people that complain the better....They Will more than likely fit a speed monitoring device a lamp post first ( looks like a small black Pell case strapped to the lamp post - this records speeds and times they happened ...they use this to determine whether they has been problems with speeding before deploying an officer with a hand held ( very are nowadays ) or other methods of enforcement etc

 

[ndt man]

exemption due to regular maintenance schedules in place...When I was driving certain vehicles it was every month or three thousand miles which ever came first - for a full service

I never knew that . So I won't be too much longer before the police car driving around our area with a back light out will be fixed !! I have seen it twice over the last couple of weeks .

 

[Broadarrow]

I never knew that . So I won't be too much longer before the police car driving around our area with a back light out will be fixed !! I have seen it twice over the last couple of weeks .

report it.