Deer - best aim point
- Thread starter Foxyboy43
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Foxyboy43
Well-Known Member
Ok chaps and any ladies currently reaching for those handbags!! My original post was prompted by my early outings many years ago when any stalkers I was with insisted on “top of shoulder” aim points which over many years I have personally refined to back line of foreleg - the opposite of what is promoted by this article and whst caught my attention - always predicated on full broadside animals. Having read the varied responses and the article again it is clear that the heartshot is not the best choice indeed this is stated categorically. Soooo - it looks like I should be aiming further forward - at the front line of foreleg. Interesting stuff and thanks to all (well, most of you) for their responses.
We were stalking today and my young stalker had a couple of good mature fallow does. We seem to have had a lot of talk and arguments about point of aim at 30m and any other distance.
Well my young stalker today tried two different ones, the classic up the back of the front leg etc and the high hilar using his 6.5 X 55 and a 140gr bullet.
The first at 170yds resulted in a high jump a run of 20 yds and dead.
The second dropped the beast on the spot at 164yds. However it was down but still alive and needed despatch.
For my money, at distance, up back of front leg and 1/3 to 1/2 way up the body is the spot. I have mostly shot deer in that area and will continue to do so.
Well my young stalker today tried two different ones, the classic up the back of the front leg etc and the high hilar using his 6.5 X 55 and a 140gr bullet.
The first at 170yds resulted in a high jump a run of 20 yds and dead.
The second dropped the beast on the spot at 164yds. However it was down but still alive and needed despatch.
For my money, at distance, up back of front leg and 1/3 to 1/2 way up the body is the spot. I have mostly shot deer in that area and will continue to do so.
Hilar, neck, head, traditional “meat saver” - I’ll use them all depending on the circumstances and the shot available the time. Being adaptable means more deer shot.
Sika-Hunter
Well-Known Member
Just behind the front leg, third of the way up is my shot of choice especially at longer ranges and if they are feeding out happy for a 20-30 yds runner, High Shoulder is an effective bang flop with instant paralysis but beast certainly took longer to expire in my experience , sub 100yds neck shots are clean and the head shot although not liked by some is an effective shot, i personally like a facing away beast or full front on for this, don't like side on.
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You just keep shooting as you do and your job is safe.
HayLa, ... Hayla HayLa! ........
Sika-Hunter
Well-Known Member
High Shoulder, sorry as on your diagram
caorach
Well-Known Member
I think that perhaps people new to deer stalking, and this included and still includes myself, can get a bit caught up on the shot other people recommend and overlook the fact that these other people are usually not there when an actual deer walks out. So I think it is good to have a range of shots as options and to take the most suitable on the day. I think the chest shot, no matter which version of it you go for, is pretty safe in the sense that the deer is dead but whether you can find the deer or not is another matter. This was brought home to me some years back when I shot a sika hind beside some replanting. It was quite a long shot in the chest but there was snow on the ground and so I was confident of finding the deer. As It was I could find where the tracks stopped but it took another little while to find the deer as it had crawled in under the lower branches of a tree and these were on the ground with the weight of snow and other vegetation. The deer was under all of this, completely invisible, and about 50 yards from the shot site. Both its front legs were broken (That explained the weird tracks - at times it was surfing on its chest in the snow). Without the snow I'd never have found it.
So I'm going to suggest having a range of shots in your mind as options and taking the one that best suits all the circumstances you face on any given day. Deciding what shot to take before you leave the house, or even worse letting someone on the internet decide it for you, is probably not ideal so I'm with Sika-Hunter on this and like to keep a range of shots as options right up until it is time to make the decision and pull the trigger.
Sika-Hunter
Well-Known Member
I think any shot on a Sika is like hitting a stab vest covered brick wall as i found out earlier this year, Shot a young Sika Stag 150yds heart/lung shot rolled 50yds downhill got up and ran another 80yds towards me , dived head first into long grass where it expired . Unbelievable animals are Sika.
Common shot placement options, and killing mechanisms... All these descriptions assume the animal is standing broadside. The reader should make an effort to visualise how to hit these positions from different angles. There are all sorts of instructional videos on YouTube about angled shots.
1. Traditional heart shot
Point of aim: Half-way below the midline and the bottom of the brisket, along the rear line of the foreleg.
Killing mechanism: Blood loss only.
Animal will likely run on, and depending on the extent of heart destruction, this can be well over 100 yds. Hard bullets that pierce the heart but do not cause a wide wound channel can result in a deer running on for several hundred yards, e.g. low velocity copper bullets and bonded bullets that pass through the animal with minimal shock.
2. Hilar shot
Point of aim: one third of the way below the midline and bottom of the brisket, in line with the upper humerus joint with the scapula. Slightly higher than the traditional heart shot. NEVER above the midline of the torso. In line with the front of the foreleg. On a large animal, e.g. heavy red stag, the shooter must visualise where the leg bone / shoulder blade joint is, and place the bullet ~2-3” behind this position.
Killing mechanism: rapid blood loss, CNS disruption.
The blood loss from a hilar shot is significantly faster than a traditional heart shot. The hilar – from “hilum” – is the junction of the pulmonary arteries and the lungs. This is immediately adjacent to the aorta, the largest artery in the body and the main blood supply between the heart, brain, organs and locomotion. In addition, intertwined with the aorta, and feeding into the lungs and down to the heart, is one of the critical autonomic plexuses. The autonomic nervous system is:
“a control system that acts largely unconsciously and regulates bodily functions, such as the heart rate, digestion, respiratory rate, pupillary response, urination, and sexual arousal. This system is the primary mechanism in control of the fight-or-flight response.”
Smash the hilar zone with a fast expanding, fragmenting bullet, and all of the key functions for survival are destroyed in an instant:
1. blood supply to and from the lungs to the heart, and from the heart to the brain and locomotion
2. brain control over all internal organ function and the ability to run away.
3. High shoulder shot
Point of aim: halfway between the midline of the animal and the crest of the spine, in line with the foreleg, right in the middle of the shoulder.
Killing mechanism: paralysis, blood loss.
The high shoulder shot is the “safest” way to anchor an animal on the spot when shooting either quickly, or from a distance. The bullet passes through the scapula, into the spine below the ~T2-T4 vertebrae, with damage to the upper lungs. This is the shot I use for longer range 300-600m shooting. The animal will be instantly dropped, and the steep downward trajectory of the expanded, fragmenting bullet will pass through the offside lung and create fatal bleeding.
When used at closer range, the high shoulder shot can often result in a paralysed animal that requires finishing off. This is because the amount of upper lung damage can be quite minimal with a flat trajectory. In these circumstances it can be quite a slow killing shot. At close range, I far prefer the hilar shot.
The high shoulder shot has the added disadvantage of potentially wasting a lot of the forequarter meat, depending on type of bullet and impact velocity.
A risk with the high shoulder is red stags with a thick winter coat can have a misleading depth of hair along the crest of the spine, resulting in a point of aim that's a shade too high. In this instance, it's almost guaranteed the animal will need a finisher.
In my experience guiding others, by far the most common mistake is placing the bullet too far back, along the midline, essentially aiming for the middle of the animal. This is often an instinctive response by newbie shooters. Even after a pre-stalk lecture on shot placement options, and lots of coaching in the prep immediately before the shot is taken, I've watched guys with powerful rifles screw it up by aiming for the centre of mass. This can be extremely aggravating! As per the comments above, it's really, really important for the junior stalker to be coached on all the options, and how to pick the right one for the circumstances, and critically how the point of aim changes with the animal's presentation to the shooter.
I know that in the UK, there are several well known guides that say a quartering shot is not recommended. I think that's nonsense, but am happy to suggest that for newbies, it's probably best to stick to full broadside. I think it's also really important for the junior stalker to get right in amongst the gralloch to inspect what their bullet has achieved, and how it killed the animal.
I'm amazed at how many squeamish deerstalkers I've met who won't do this...
1. Traditional heart shot
Point of aim: Half-way below the midline and the bottom of the brisket, along the rear line of the foreleg.
Killing mechanism: Blood loss only.
Animal will likely run on, and depending on the extent of heart destruction, this can be well over 100 yds. Hard bullets that pierce the heart but do not cause a wide wound channel can result in a deer running on for several hundred yards, e.g. low velocity copper bullets and bonded bullets that pass through the animal with minimal shock.
2. Hilar shot
Point of aim: one third of the way below the midline and bottom of the brisket, in line with the upper humerus joint with the scapula. Slightly higher than the traditional heart shot. NEVER above the midline of the torso. In line with the front of the foreleg. On a large animal, e.g. heavy red stag, the shooter must visualise where the leg bone / shoulder blade joint is, and place the bullet ~2-3” behind this position.
Killing mechanism: rapid blood loss, CNS disruption.
The blood loss from a hilar shot is significantly faster than a traditional heart shot. The hilar – from “hilum” – is the junction of the pulmonary arteries and the lungs. This is immediately adjacent to the aorta, the largest artery in the body and the main blood supply between the heart, brain, organs and locomotion. In addition, intertwined with the aorta, and feeding into the lungs and down to the heart, is one of the critical autonomic plexuses. The autonomic nervous system is:
“a control system that acts largely unconsciously and regulates bodily functions, such as the heart rate, digestion, respiratory rate, pupillary response, urination, and sexual arousal. This system is the primary mechanism in control of the fight-or-flight response.”
Smash the hilar zone with a fast expanding, fragmenting bullet, and all of the key functions for survival are destroyed in an instant:
1. blood supply to and from the lungs to the heart, and from the heart to the brain and locomotion
2. brain control over all internal organ function and the ability to run away.
3. High shoulder shot
Point of aim: halfway between the midline of the animal and the crest of the spine, in line with the foreleg, right in the middle of the shoulder.
Killing mechanism: paralysis, blood loss.
The high shoulder shot is the “safest” way to anchor an animal on the spot when shooting either quickly, or from a distance. The bullet passes through the scapula, into the spine below the ~T2-T4 vertebrae, with damage to the upper lungs. This is the shot I use for longer range 300-600m shooting. The animal will be instantly dropped, and the steep downward trajectory of the expanded, fragmenting bullet will pass through the offside lung and create fatal bleeding.
When used at closer range, the high shoulder shot can often result in a paralysed animal that requires finishing off. This is because the amount of upper lung damage can be quite minimal with a flat trajectory. In these circumstances it can be quite a slow killing shot. At close range, I far prefer the hilar shot.
The high shoulder shot has the added disadvantage of potentially wasting a lot of the forequarter meat, depending on type of bullet and impact velocity.
A risk with the high shoulder is red stags with a thick winter coat can have a misleading depth of hair along the crest of the spine, resulting in a point of aim that's a shade too high. In this instance, it's almost guaranteed the animal will need a finisher.
In my experience guiding others, by far the most common mistake is placing the bullet too far back, along the midline, essentially aiming for the middle of the animal. This is often an instinctive response by newbie shooters. Even after a pre-stalk lecture on shot placement options, and lots of coaching in the prep immediately before the shot is taken, I've watched guys with powerful rifles screw it up by aiming for the centre of mass. This can be extremely aggravating! As per the comments above, it's really, really important for the junior stalker to be coached on all the options, and how to pick the right one for the circumstances, and critically how the point of aim changes with the animal's presentation to the shooter.
I know that in the UK, there are several well known guides that say a quartering shot is not recommended. I think that's nonsense, but am happy to suggest that for newbies, it's probably best to stick to full broadside. I think it's also really important for the junior stalker to get right in amongst the gralloch to inspect what their bullet has achieved, and how it killed the animal.
I'm amazed at how many squeamish deerstalkers I've met who won't do this...
Dan Gliballs
Well-Known Member
Just stick it in the engine room.
I find it slightly odd that every second thread on here is "what bullet do I use to reduce meat damage" yet think that shooting the **** out of the shoulder blades or high shoulder is the way forward.
Don't over think it, shoot it!
I find it slightly odd that every second thread on here is "what bullet do I use to reduce meat damage" yet think that shooting the **** out of the shoulder blades or high shoulder is the way forward.
Don't over think it, shoot it!
Yup, that's all fine, just so long as you're prepared to do more mileage looking for your long runners.
I prefer to have my deer on the deck, where it was standing when I shot it.
It takes a couple of seconds to pick the shot that will best achieve DRT in the circumstances, versus several hours of buggering around in bramble thickets if you don't bother.
That's just the way I see it.
Have you been spying on me?
Namman
Well-Known Member
Most of my heart / lung shot deer run a few yards when hit and then they fall over. My experience is that these deer do not get up again. Shots high on the shoulder on the other hand, missing the spine, can result in the deer dropping to shot , only to get up again and run off!
glasshalffull
Well-Known Member
My butcher told me recently I wasn't as good a shot as the latest chap who gave him a deer for butchering as he shot it between the eye's. I explained to him the deer in question had undoubtedly been lamped 
Yup, that I can most certainly agree with.
So therefore, put it in the right place.
The logic is the same for all shot selections - for DRT - precision counts.
I should explain again @Namman, in the kind of country we shoot - the very steep, scrubby hill country of the Central North Island - any kind of run on after a shot can prove disastrous, as the animal can easily be lost down ravines, and into impenetrable scrub. Once they embark on a dead run, there's no knowing where they will end up. That is to be avoided, hence the great effort to drop them right there.
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