Moving my 308 to lead free- suggestions and thoughts please

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billy_boyle_2010

Well-Known Member
Hi guys

A chap I'm lucky enough to shoot with occasionally has moved to lead free as a result of dealer requirements. If im to continue getting the odd invite- I should follow suit.

This isn't one of those tiresome "what's the best ammo for my gun" threads- as I know it depends very much on the barrel (although if anyone has some suggests that generally work in most guns I would be most interested....)

He shoots a 270- if speed makes a copper bullet work best- am I right in thinking he will get decent expansion further out than me ?

However- I am after some suggestions as to what I can expect from a 308 in lead free. I currently shoot a very loopy Gecko 170gr as it groups the best. The extra 0.8" drop at 200 yards over a 150gr doesn't bother me! Barrel is 1:11 twist.

From what I have read- lead free needs to be a lighter bullet in general to generate expansion. Perhaps 120-140gr.

So- may i ask for suggestions on bullet weight- based on my barrel twist rate ?

What have people found to be a distance limit before bullet expansion drops off in 308?

Is there a limiting factor based on my twist rate? I'm unsure whether a 1:11 is a fast or slow twist rate for 308 ?

Any other advice would be much appreciated thank you.
 
1:11 is faster rather than slower, so in the .308 you should be well placed for lead-free.

I have used factory Hornady Superperformance 150gr GMX and home loaded 150gr GMX, 130gr Barnes TTSX and 110TTSX in my 1:11 .308W. Currently I am using the 110gr.
billy_boyle_2010 said:
From what I have read- lead free needs to be a lighter bullet in general to generate expansion.
Click to expand...

I see it the other way around...the terminal effect of an expanding non-fragmenting mono metal bullet means that you have the advantage of delivering sufficient energy and penetration using a lighter bullet because it retains most of its weight and transfers energy by hydraulic shock. A lighter bullet for calibre means that you can drive it faster which in turn delivers more energy and helps flatten your trajectory. There is little risk of it "blowing up" like a frangible lead core bullet may do at the same terminal velocity.

There appears to be an internet consensus that 2000fps is the safe limit for TTSX to ensure expansion...so if you are loading them around the 3,000fps MV you are good for the best part of 400yds before they drop below 2,000.

Different manufacturers claim different minimum velocities...not surprising given the different designs and materials used in lead-free bullets. The same applies to lead core bullets of course. The TTSX are solid copper designed to expand and rarely fragment, but some of the other mono metal bullets are designed to fragment. There are some which are frangible compressed powder of copper in a gilding metal jacket which are designed for varmints and a number of variations like tin partitions lying somewhere in between...

Fox, Barnes, Hornady and RWS appear to be fairly readily available in factory ammunition.

Alan
 
I can`t help you with expansion on long range but can tell you that I shot a Roe Doe last week at 110 yards with my 308 home load of 130gr TTSX in a 13 twist barrel and grouping is sub MOA if I do my bit.
She dropped on the spot and you could see that even with her light frame bullet expansion was rapid.
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
Hi guys

A chap I'm lucky enough to shoot with occasionally has moved to lead free as a result of dealer requirements. If im to continue getting the odd invite- I should follow suit.

This isn't one of those tiresome "what's the best ammo for my gun" threads- as I know it depends very much on the barrel (although if anyone has some suggests that generally work in most guns I would be most interested....)

He shoots a 270- if speed makes a copper bullet work best- am I right in thinking he will get decent expansion further out than me ?

However- I am after some suggestions as to what I can expect from a 308 in lead free. I currently shoot a very loopy Gecko 170gr as it groups the best. The extra 0.8" drop at 200 yards over a 150gr doesn't bother me! Barrel is 1:11 twist.

From what I have read- lead free needs to be a lighter bullet in general to generate expansion. Perhaps 120-140gr.

So- may i ask for suggestions on bullet weight- based on my barrel twist rate ?

What have people found to be a distance limit before bullet expansion drops off in 308?

Is there a limiting factor based on my twist rate? I'm unsure whether a 1:11 is a fast or slow twist rate for 308 ?

Any other advice would be much appreciated thank you.
Click to expand...
If you reload Barnes ttsx are the way to go in 130 grain. I use 748 Winchester and 51.5 grains and easily get 3150 fps out of my Steyr model L .308 could load a little higher but this is deadly and flat shooting. Haven't used anything else for the last 8 years since changing to these. The barnes do work best when pushed fast . Very easy to reload start 50 thou off the lands and keep going and you will quickly find a sweet spot , super accurate and easy to shoot.
 
Very useful thanks guys

Sadly I haven't gone down the route of reloading- so will be using factory ammo. But I will try and find some with the copper bullets you mention above :)
 
I’ve only tried factory non toxic ammo on paper (I don’t reload) as I haven’t had a chance to get out recently but mine is another vote for accuracy for the 130gr Barnes TTSX which groups sub moa in my 20inch barrel (1 in 11 twist rate) in .308. However, I recently tried Fox .308 130gr and that was an even tighter group compared side by side with Barnes. It seems Barnes factory ammo is becoming more and more available around me but I’ve been struggling to find Sako non toxic together with S&B and others (despite repeated requests at at least 3 shops) therefore I only had access to Barnes and Fox factory ammo. Personally, I’d have a look at what your local shop sells and give it a go but the consensus seems to be that a slightly lighter grain bullet going fast seems to work for non toxic.
 
New to shooting and new to reloading but I made up some home loads using 130gr Barnes ttsx, 47.1gn of N140 and through my t3lite got 3/4" group at 100m (at the range), they ran at 2857fps average. That will do for me.
 
Fox ammo has quite a lot lower bc than Barnes ttsx no matter if your shooting sub 200m but if your stretching it........
 
billy_boyle_2010 said:
interesting - do you have a "real world" max range for both ?
Click to expand...
I like a high bc bullet to buck the wind and drop but both will work I’m sure makes getting it spot on harder though? I’ve never shot fox bullets though so I can’t say but ttsx good to 400m for me but each to his own I’m sure.
 
You can’t compare bullets solely on material

Choose a bullet based on your quarry, cartridge and expected range

What works for a 300wm at 300m on elk won’t necessarily work well on muntjac at 50 yds or roe deer at 100

By and large the design principles that give hunting bullets high BC are largely irrelevant inside 300m
Wind bucking ability still requires you to be able to judge and measure wind

The difference between a 10mph wind and a 15mph wind at 300 yds is less than 3/4 of a moa
It’s les than 1/2 an moa at 200yds

Now I dont know about you but I can’t reliably judge a 5mph difference in wind at the firing point and more importantly in the 299 yds after that
More significantly very few people can hit a 0.75 moa target first time every time at 300yds

High BC hunting bullets look great on paper but if it is at the detriment of the expansion capabilities at range as is the case in some monometal non lead bullets then it should be seen as a negative if the vast majority of your shooting is inside 200- 250m


I shot Fox 150gr in my 20” .308 for 3years and acounted for quite a number of longer shots out to 250-275yds
I did have an example of significant wind drift that pulled the shots on a group of hinds, largely due to my failure to recognise the cross wind at the shot site compared to the headwind at the firing point

Even in a 20-25mph wind I was only off a couple of inches at over 200yds with an MV of 2650

Stop overthinking the BC and focus on expansion at the ranges you require
It is primary
 
Edinburgh Rifles said:
You can’t compare bullets solely on material

Choose a bullet based on your quarry, cartridge and expected range

What works for a 300wm at 300m on elk won’t necessarily work well on muntjac at 50 yds or roe deer at 100

By and large the design principles that give hunting bullets high BC are largely irrelevant inside 300m
Wind bucking ability still requires you to be able to judge and measure wind

The difference between a 10mph wind and a 15mph wind at 300 yds is less than 3/4 of a moa
It’s les than 1/2 an moa at 200yds

Now I dont know about you but I can’t reliably judge a 5mph difference in wind at the firing point and more importantly in the 299 yds after that
More significantly very few people can hit a 0.75 moa target first time every time at 300yds

High BC hunting bullets look great on paper but if it is at the detriment of the expansion capabilities at range as is the case in some monometal non lead bullets then it should be seen as a negative if the vast majority of your shooting is inside 200- 250m


I shot Fox 150gr in my 20” .308 for 3years and acounted for quite a number of longer shots out to 250-275yds
I did have an example of significant wind drift that pulled the shots on a group of hinds, largely due to my failure to recognise the cross wind at the shot site compared to the headwind at the firing point

Even in a 20-25mph wind I was only off a couple of inches at over 200yds with an MV of 2650

Stop overthinking the BC and focus on expansion at the ranges you require
It is primary
Click to expand...
I have never shot anything more than 180 yards as I lowland stalk and really like to get under 150 yards.
I shoot a .243 and take muntjac, roe and occasional red and fallow.
My t3 doesn't seem choosy as shoots norma 100, geco 105 and home load 85 all lead all to the same point of aim at 100 yrds.
What nontoxic factory loads would you advise for this type of shooting.
🙂
I have a slot for a .308 but dont feel the need for it to be filled presently
 
Thought I would update this

Based on the guide here from Andrew Venibles

www.wmsfirearmstraining.com

Lockdown Illumination: Lead free rifle shooting?

By the 1st December 2022, all Forestry and Land Scotland (FLS) contractors will be using lead-free ammunition for shooting deer and feral pigs. The rangers have already switched to non-lead bullets. In 2019-2020 FLS sold 850,000kg of venison as human food, much of it exported to Europe. The...
www.wmsfirearmstraining.com

I have bought a 130gr copper bullet. I went for fox.

Interestingly copper bullets have been selling like hot cakes down here recently after a couple of local game dealers started insisting on it.

I will update this when I have had some real world experience of it.

Only other issue is the price. I'm used to paying £30 for 308 ammo. This stuff was £44!
 
Last edited:
baguio said:
It's horrible on small deer. My mates have tried it and also consigned it to the bin. Sorry but I will be holding out for as long as possible in the hope that the offerings improve!
Click to expand...

How small is small ? Do you classify roe as small or medium?

And what makes it horrible ? Poor expansion?

It does seem that there's an awful lot of R&D going into these bullets. I can see one needing different bullets for different quarry.
 
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