Accuracy of a rifle versus the ammo

[Ben23]

Morning all,

Just a thought that came to me in the shower, as good questions often do, that I though I may posit on here.

To what extent do you think the accuracy of a rifle/round combo is down to the rifle, or the ammunition for that rifle? For sake of argument, this is for deer stalking purposes, so hunting rifle and few shots going down it at a time, and not in competition.

Assuming there is no ‘fault’ with the rifle, if you’re reloading and tailoring a round to a particular rifle, (having just read about such things like barrel harmonics and bullet jump etc.), it seems like one should be able to get pretty tight groups with a well developed round for a particular rifle. But how much does the quality of a barrel, for example, improve that?

I guess what I was pondering, a little bored in lockdown with my stalking cancelled haha, is what percentage do you gents think is on the rifle versus the round developed for that rifle?

Not sure if that’s articulated well, but just interested in hearing your thoughts!

 

[Utectok]

Most modern factory made rifles can be made to shoot sub moa quite easily with a home load. Unless they are shot out or got some other serious issues. The rifle bullet combination starts to get a bit more critical going from .5moa to .25 moa which is where comp shooters like to get to. Some factory rifles will do it but not all... well that my experience not that I worry to much about it as the nut behind the bolt is also a major factor and if I can get sub moa I’m happy for most stalking. I’m sure others will have more experience so I await greater wisdom?!

 

[Selous]

I think the single variable with the greatest effect on potential accuracy is the barrel, with the ammunition being second. That said you may be lucky and get a good off the peg barrel from Sako/Tikka/Remington etc but you stand a far better chance of a really good barrel with a custom barrel suck as Bartlein, Kreiger, Brux, Sassen, GB barrels etc. There are many other things that can also have a bearing such as bedding, scope mounting, the scope, the trigger etc
Saying that tuning the ammunition to the rifle can make a significant difference. In essence consistent accuracy is the sum of many parts!

 

[Chris J]

Well it's an interesting question, but it works kinda both ways doesn't it. Will a high quality barrel shoot cheap ammo well? The answer to which is, it might, it might not. I bought a nearly new Sako package. I'd like to think that Sako made reasonable rifles. I wanted some factory ammo to get me on the paper rather than start with home loads. I bought Norma. £69 a box. Yes, £69. I only bought one box oddly. Couldn't hit a barn with it. Never mind the barn door. Bought some Federal Fusion. Jeez, couldn't hit the field the barn was in. Threw in some of my home loads and bingo. Perfect little groups. Shot plenty with it since. I think the answer is (as long as the barrel isn't damaged or worn) it's a complete lottery! It's all about alignment of the variables. I bought a 25-06 and a box of Winchester PEPs with it for the same reason and right out of the box it was a tack driver. Why bother home loading when you get a result like that?

Every single round I load goes over the scale. So I know there is consistency. When it goes over the chrono the range is typically very small indeed. That eliminates one of the variables. I watch You Tube vids with people shooting factory ammo over a chrono and the results are often quite poor. Couple that to a barrel that has an opposite 'dynamic' if you will and it's not going to be a good combo.

In answer to your original question, I;d suggest that any 'known' commercial brand is going to be good enough. Put two side by side and they're probably going to be less consistently manufactured compared to a big name, but they're good enough. And as you're only buying one, it doesn't matter! As just said, it's the sum of many parts.

 

[tarponhead]

As a newcomer to reloading, I read the word consistency in all the literature, a lot. The rifle is the rifle so unless the barrel is in good condition then I can't imagine any amount of good ammunition would make much difference. I bought a Browning Buckmaster that someone had cut down to a shorter barrel - and ruined it. It wouldn't group anything less than about 6 MOA - took it to a gunsmith who took one look and condemned it for economical repair, so I returned it to York Guns who were very good about it and didn't quibble. Good quality factory ammunition in my CZ, Sako or Bergara rifles is stupidly and consistently accurate - once I find what they like the best. My CZ doesn't care what I put through it. My Bergara likes Federal, my Sako's like Winchester or CCI. for the rimfires. My center-fires aren't fussy, but it does make a +/- 1 or 2 MOA difference. Still Minute of Deer for the most part, but its fun finding the right make and then going further with handloads. To your point on the nut behind the butt, the confidence of knowing your rifle shoots cloverleaves at hunting differences should not be underestimated.

 

[Selous]

Over the years I have been fortunate to own a few rifles of different types to cover a wide range of hunting situations that could be encountered. What I find with custom barreled rifles is that when you feed it ammunition that it doesn’t like you will perhaps get a group of 1 to 1.5 MOA. With the factory barrels I have owned a poorly matched load could easily be 3-4 MOA. The most accurate factory barrel I owned with matched ammunition was 0.5 MOA capable but the most accurate custom barreled rifle would regularly shoot sub 0.2 MOA. Basically I think the better barrels win at both ends of the spectrum

 

[User00040]

Morning all,

Just a thought that came to me in the shower, as good questions often do, that I though I may posit on here.

To what extent do you think the accuracy of a rifle/round combo is down to the rifle, or the ammunition for that rifle? For sake of argument, this is for deer stalking purposes, so hunting rifle and few shots going down it at a time, and not in competition.

Assuming there is no ‘fault’ with the rifle, if you’re reloading and tailoring a round to a particular rifle, (having just read about such things like barrel harmonics and bullet jump etc.), it seems like one should be able to get pretty tight groups with a well developed round for a particular rifle. But how much does the quality of a barrel, for example, improve that?

I guess what I was pondering, a little bored in lockdown with my stalking cancelled haha, is what percentage do you gents think is on the rifle versus the round developed for that rifle?

Not sure if that’s articulated well, but just interested in hearing your thoughts!

Really don't like 'percentage' answers as unless you have a complete data set (to give the eventual 100/100), it's all pretty ambiguous.

You would need to remove as many variables as possible, which is difficult as there are a lot of variables.

Variable group #1 is the shooter who aims and fires the rifle, so you would need to replace this with a repeatable system (some sort of jig).

Variable group #2 is range conditions, so a large indoor shooting facility with no draughts and a regulated climate, very hard to find and expensive.

Variable group #3 would then be equipment, which is what the OP wants to have a discussion on.

For this I group, would be looking at:

1. bullet design
2. how a cartridge is loaded (so, putting that bullet into a case in which contains a charge and primer), all the seating depth, charge, crimp type/level and whatever else.
3. The chambering dimensions (how much freebore, how cartridge fit to chamber affects things etc)
4. barrel design (twist rate, contour, crown etc)
5. Practicality, as it is for hunting/stalking, the rifle must be portable (set a target weight), be stocked correctly for field use and be reliable with a good, safe trigger.

@bend23 , you might like to read about some Americans who came close to eliminating variables (but for benchrest)

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse – Lessons In Extreme Rifle Accuracy

Back in 1993, Precision Shooting Magazine printed a landmark article about the findings of a group o...

precisionrifleblog.com

Secrets of the Houston Warehouse

 

[Jelen]

I've the years I've owned Parker Hale, CZ, Weatherby, Howa, Remington, Ruger No1, Tikka, Blaser, Mannlicher and Mauser. .223, 22.250, .243, 6.5x55, 308. With factory ammo the size of group varied depending on brand but were good enough for boiler room shots out to 150m. With home loads they all grouped sub MOA, some better than that! I think thatn points to the ammo, not the rifles.

 

[Scapegoat]

I think I've said this before, but the majority of modern rifles will be capable of shooting sub-MOA, out of the box, with the right ammo. Accuracy is a sum of many parts as stated above....... and an accurate barrel is only one link in the chain of trigger, bedding, flex, head position, hold and support etc etc etc. which is why custom rifles will perform better in terms of group sizes than a budget sporter with a hefty trigger and a flexible stock. Factory ammo is consistent enough, and the majority of factory rifle setups are consistent enough to achieve acceptable accuracy for most of our common hunting scenarios, ie putting a round into a 4 or 5 inch kill zone on a deer at 50 to (let's say) 200 yards, and that is in the hands of a reasonably competent shooter.

The quest for tack-driving accuracy is a long, expensive and precipitous path ....... but if that's what you're into (and I have to hold my hand up here, I want the bullet to strike where I put the crosshair every single time) then you need to eliminate the many variables that prevent that accuracy. You need to find (or develop) a round that performs to your chosen standard, you need to make sure the barrel is in good condition, clean and free from defects, the trigger is predictable and doesn't make you flinch or flex muscles that will pull your shot off target, the stock holds the barrel correctly and consistently to deliver the round as you need to, the rifle contact points (cheekweld, head position, butt in shoulder pocket and forward support) are set up correctly to the shooter so that your point of aim, recoil and flip don't interfere with accuracy. You need at least a rudimentary knowledge of ballistics to understand how range and external conditions will affect bullet flight.... the list goes on and on.

 

[gixer1]

I think most of the variable is on the rifle/barrel...I can put most weights/brands of ammunition through my rifles and it will all be within a few inch group at 100 yards..

I have had rifles in the past that would not do this at all.

I watched an old guy at a range in the US once with a Lee loader, he was firing 10 or so shots, then taking the same brass from those shots, and reloading it there with nothing but a Lee loader...no cleaning of the brass or anything.

his groups were absolutely fine. It’s one of the main reasons I now own a good number of Lee loaders in many calibers and why I think ammunition isn’t as big an impact as the rifle/barrel.

regards,
Gixer

 

[User00040]

I think most of the variable is on the rifle/barrel...I can put most weights/brands of ammunition through my rifles and it will all be within a few inch group at 100 yards..

I have had rifles in the past that would not do this at all.

I watched an old guy at a range in the US once with a Lee loader, he was firing 10 or so shots, the taking the same brass from those shots, and reloading it there with nothing but a Lee loader...no cleaning of the brass or anything.

his groups were absolutely fine. It’s one of the main reasons I now own a good number of Lee loaders in many calibers and why I think ammunition isn’t as big an impact as the rifle/barrel.

regards,
Gixer

@gixer1 must be lying as we all know you need £500 odd worth of reloading equipment and be neck turning, case annealing and bump sizing your cases or the bullets will come out of the barrel backwards!

The alarming increase in ammunition prices in a few short years and the impending reloading restrictions in the UK should have turned many into reloaders. I held out at first, thinking it would be a major time drain, but having experience in a similar field (archery) I realised the markup for assembling and packaging readily available components (before 2020, haha), the questionable quality of these loaded rounds plus the freedom to develop rounds to match your rifle meant that reloading was a no brainer.

That being said, I have occasionally been able to find loaded rounds with quality cases, at prices which are cheaper than what these empty cases sell for per 100. Most of the time this ammo was being sold at a clearance price by a smaller shop with no online presence, some have even closed since.

 

[mealiejimmy]

You missed out the most important variable - the person pulling the trigger.
More misses are caused by poor marksmanship than by any barrel or round of ammunition.

Cheers

Bruce

 

[Dalua]

...the impending reloading restrictions in the UK ...

Have I missed something - what are these restricitons?

 

[Dalua]

You missed out the most important variable - the person pulling the trigger.

That is true, but looking at the OP's question, that seems to be a deliberate omission.

I think he question is about the influence of the mechanical entities of rifle and ammuntion on the precision of shooting.

I recall a previous thread Accuracy in the field? in which I suggested that precision might be a property of the rifle and ammuntion, and accuracy a property additionally influenced by the sights and the shooter.

 

[Steff]

Morning all,

Just a thought that came to me in the shower, as good questions often do, that I though I may posit on here.

....

Good to see that people are still taking showers despite the lockdown ....

 

[Uncas]

I think as human beings we over think and over complicate matters like barrels and ammunition.
In fifty years of owning a lot of rifles, some shot better with one brand of ammo or another but they nearly all shot well with RWS.
And I mean 1-1/4'' or less, most sub 1''

 

[Ben23]

That is true, but looking at the OP's question, that seems to be a deliberate omission.

I think he question is about the influence of the mechanical entities of rifle and ammuntion on the precision of shooting.

I recall a previous thread Accuracy in the field? in which I suggested that precision might be a property of the rifle and ammuntion, and accuracy a property additionally influenced by the sights and the shooter.

Yes, you’re bang on. Deliberately omitting the shooter.

Have I missed something - what are these restricitons?

Also intrigued about this. Have I just invested in reloading gear for no reason?!

 

[User00040]

Have I missed something - what are these restricitons?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/936545/Ammunition_IA_-_signed_30_09_2020.pdf

Read and weep.

Government logic, there is illegal ammunition being manufactured, so we want to ban or regulate otherwise legal purchases of components.

Why not cut it off at the source and tackle the illegal arms trade instead of the legal one?

 

[HandB]

I find that when my rifles are properly set up with a correctly-attached/zeroed scope they will shoot decently well (approx 1 MOA or less) with any ammo I have tried. So for me the rifle/scope combo is the key. Get that sorted and don't worry about the ammo, unless you are a target shooter.

 

[Chris J]

Thanks for posting that. I'm sure it's been hotly debated elsewhere already but in reading it, all that I can see is that they want to make it an offence to have components in your possession with the intent to manufacture large amounts of completed rounds. At present, just having the bits that aren't regulated isn't enough of an offence to secure a conviction. For a regular FAC holder who is allowed to have a certain number of completed rounds, it's already an offence to have more than that stated quantity. Now if you had only components, the police would have to prove your intent to manufacture a larger number which I doubt they'd really take on as a case unless you were thought to genuinely have a criminal connection.

I can't see the obvious implications for a genuine homeloader with sufficient completed round allocation for their personal use. There's no mention of banning the sale of components at all or placing further restrictions on sales that I could see.