Re-barreling UK

[MarinePMI]

Now, MarinePMI, is there such a reasonably priced testing service for homeloads or commercial loads in the US ? Two week turnaround. Or independent proofing of guns, whether they be mass manufactured or cobbled together by " 'smiths" of whatever level of competence, knowledge, experience, access to the important tooling, whatever ?

Nope. Because any idiot with an IQ above room temperature understands that IT'S NOT NEEDED! (Which is the question being debated here; is it needed?.) An intelligent, reasonable person understands that company QA/QC practices suffice for material quality assurance, and 'smiths are capable of determining if an action is suspect or not.

But hey, if you want to justify an antiquated, costly and unneeded process, go for it. If your sole reasoning for this is in the name of safety (makes you "feel" safer), than you have also just explained why the UK has lost the majority of it's firearms rights. Gutless, pandering, stuffy, often times wealthy, air heads that babble on about safety while driving their sport in to the ground, pricing the younger generations out of ever carrying on the traditions, all while justifying giving up their rights in the process (for the safety of the whole).

It's logic like yours that paves the way to hell...and the demise of the sports in the UK.

<shrug> Pardon me, while I go clean my unproofed bolt action, semi-auto rifles, shotguns and hand guns, that have literally tens of thousands of rounds through them.... <rolleyes>

Sometimes you just can't fix stupid...smh.

 

[Sharpie]

Nope. Because any idiot with an IQ above room temperature understands that IT'S NOT NEEDED! (Which is the question being debated here; is it needed?.) An intelligent, reasonable person understands that company QA/QC practices suffice for material quality assurance, and 'smiths are capable of determining if an action is suspect or not.

But hey, if you want to justify an antiquated, costly and unneeded process, go for it. If your sole reasoning for this is in the name of safety, than you have also just explained why the UK has lost the majority of it's firearms rights. Gutless, pandering, stuffy, often times wealthy, air heads that babble on about safety while driving their sport in to the ground, pricing the younger generations out of ever carrying on the traditions, all while justifying giving up their rights in the process (for the safety of the whole).

It's logic like yours that paves the way to hell...and the demise of the sports in the UK.

<shrug> Pardon me, while I go clean my unproofed bolt action, semi-auto rifles, shotguns and hand guns, that have literally tens of thousands of rounds through them.... <rolleyes>

Sometimes you just can't fix stupid...smh.

Ok, you are either just a wind up merchant or intentionally controversialist. Either way perilously close to being my first ever to use the "ignore" facility on.

It's not funny and not clever.

But I shan't yet, indeed look forward to winding you up even more. God bless "Merica" and "vive la difference".

 

[MarinePMI]

Ooh! I "shan't" be able to sleep now, knowing that you are "perilously close" to ignoring me. No, really. This hurts my psyche...I think I shall develop a complex over it, and carry it for the rest of my life... <rolleyes>

<yawn> "Controversialist"? No, I just have a low tolerance of bull**** from people trying to justify something that clearly is not necessary.

But hey, it's always been done it this way, so it must be the right way...

 

[kenbro]

Some of it but like any other trade mine included. There’s ongoing costs, tooling wears out. I inquired about buying a reamer for a wildcat and the lifespan is only a few barrels. I have to replace and or repair many of the tools of my trade. Gun smithing is no different.

Chamber reamers are consumables, and as such should be built into the price of so many uses.
In my opinion, chamber reamers are cheap, even if you want a one off grinding.
I don’t use them, but have bought several and once they’ve done the job I bought them for, I loan them out, or give them away. Sent several back to US Free issue.
And no, I don’t have loadsa money.
10+ years ago gunsmithing prices more reasonable when comparing to the cost of a new factory gun,
Now they are way more expensive than a decent factory product, which, unless you want that “Tack driver” all day long Accuracy (That Most forsale gun’s exhibit) or some silly Wildcat like me, you are better off buying (My opinion) factory. When the time comes to sell, it will have a far bigger market and not lose a fraction of the money a Custom build will.
The choice is always yours.
Ken.

 

[User00040]

I'll leave this here:

 

[MarinePMI]

I'll leave this here:

LOL! Thanks for posting that, John is a good guy.

He makes a couple of very good points, and does a good job of listing the various types of pre-fits. TBH, I've run every type he mentioned (AI QC, Tikka shouldered,Tikka barrel nut, Origin shouldered and Savage barrel nuts). At last count (off the top of my head) I have had at least 9 barrels done in these various ways, and it is hands down the way to go. Especially if you're competing, and burning through barrels (with 6.5CM burning out around 2500-3000rds, it's pretty easy to have to swap barrels mid-season). The gunsmithing, barreling business has changed due to advancements made in manufacturing tolerances.

I think even Muir has a CF shorty 6.5CM barrel waiting on an action right now.

And I have never heard of an unsafe pre-fit being received by anyone (and I think as a Mod on the Hide, I probably would have heard of it).

...all without proofing needed, or required.

 

[MarinePMI]

Oh, and one other data point on "pre-fits" and whether proofing is required...

It's worth noting that every M-16/AR-15/M-4...uses essentially what is a pre-fit barrel. And yeah, those certainly aren't "proofed". Now, let's think a minute: How many millions of AR type rifles are out there? (FYI: An estimated 5-10 million in the US alone, just in civilian hands).

AR-15's in the US

 

[NP435]

Ooh! I "shan't" be able to sleep now, knowing that you are "perilously close" to ignoring me. No, really. This hurts my psyche...I think I shall develop a complex over it, and carry it for the rest of my life... <rolleyes>

<yawn> "Controversialist"? No, I just have a low tolerance of bull**** from people trying to justify something that clearly is not necessary.

But hey, it's always been done it this way, so it must be the right way...

It matters not if we in the USA like the procedure in the UK, matters not if we think its silly, not our place to pour **** on peoples boots so to speak.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Chamber reamers are consumables, and as such should be built into the price of so many uses.
In my opinion, chamber reamers are cheap, even if you want a one off grinding.
I don’t use them, but have bought several and once they’ve done the job I bought them for, I loan them out, or give them away. Sent several back to US Free issue.
And no, I don’t have loadsa money.
10+ years ago gunsmithing prices more reasonable when comparing to the cost of a new factory gun,
Now they are way more expensive than a decent factory product, which, unless you want that “Tack driver” all day long Accuracy (That Most forsale gun’s exhibit) or some silly Wildcat like me, you are better off buying (My opinion) factory. When the time comes to sell, it will have a far bigger market and not lose a fraction of the money a Custom build will.
The choice is always yours.
Ken.

Kind of my point, tooling is something built into the price. Along with all the other overheads and the wage/s for those doing the work.
10+ years ago rifles were dearer comparatively then they are now, while other costs are higher. Try find a decent tradesman for the rates you paid ten years ago.
You are right that factory rifles are very accurate (fed the right ammo) possibly more so than the shooter is capable of.
That said I am not likely to buy a new factory rifle, I am quite happy to take the saving on the secondhand custom build though.

 

[Sharpie]

Ahem, a lot of pre-fit and otherwise barrels on the US market are made by Bergara in Spain. Each and every one is of course proofed to CIP standards, because that is the law here. And no barrel may leave a CIP signatory nation without being proofed.

Even Russia is signed up to CIP, so if you yanks are still allowed to buy a genuine AK, it will have undergone the procedure.

They supply a LOT of e.g. AR15 barrels which get sold under all sorts of other names, as well as of course complete rifles and pre-fits for e.g Remington actions and others all the CVA rifles, lots more.

Plenty on YouTube to show how they do it, and the way that they machine their own actions is fascinating. Starting with a raw steel billet, first step is to machine the barrel thread, then screw it into the CNC machine which then carves it out into a complete action. Same with the bolts. Billet first gets the firing pin hole drilled, then into the CNC referenced from that.

Such a difference from e.g. a Remington action or bolt, cobbled together from multiple pieceparts. Efficient, precise, interchangeable no fitting required.

This what can be done when starting fresh, with no hangover from old fashioned ways of doing things, and employing the best consultants from wherever they come from.

Start here:

 

[Sharpie]

More:

 

[aris]

Nope. Because any idiot with an IQ above room temperature understands that IT'S NOT NEEDED! (Which is the question being debated here; is it needed?.) An intelligent, reasonable person understands that company QA/QC practices suffice for material quality assurance, and 'smiths are capable of determining if an action is suspect or not.

Boeing thought re-certifying the 737 Max wasn't needed either.

Sometimes you need an independent party to double check stuff - particularly when it comes to safety.

 

[Sharpie]

Furthermore, proofing of guns and ammunition is not just some archaic UK thing, to be mocked by insular know-nothings.

Educate yourself, e.g. study Commission internationale permanente pour l'épreuve des armes à feu portatives - Wikipedia

 

[finnbear270]

As a know nothing about proof house goings on, All I'm interested in is, did it come back to the smith OK, not the why & wherefore.

 

[finnbear270]

Would anyone send a kit car to NCAP?

 

[Sharpie]

Would anyone send a kit car to NCAP?

No, but it must be inspected by DVSA and pass IVA. Just as any imported vehicle that is not homologated in the EU.

Individual Vehicle Approval (IVA) for cars: help to get a pass

www.gov.uk

Rather analogous to our gun proof requirements. Surprising how many kit cars built by enthusiastic amateurs do not, without rectification. And how many old shotguns do not, if sent for re-proof by a responsible dealer if they have any doubts as to their condition, before they can be legally sold. ISTR that PineMarten from here lost a drilling that he had personally imported under these circumstances, but better it fail at the proof house than in the owner's hands.

 

[kenbro]

Ahem, a lot of pre-fit and otherwise barrels on the US market are made by Bergara in Spain. Each and every one is of course proofed to CIP standards, because that is the law here. And no barrel may leave a CIP signatory nation without being proofed.

Even Russia is signed up to CIP, so if you yanks are still allowed to buy a genuine AK, it will have undergone the procedure.

They supply a LOT of e.g. AR15 barrels which get sold under all sorts of other names, as well as of course complete rifles and pre-fits for e.g Remington actions and others all the CVA rifles, lots more.

Plenty on YouTube to show how they do it, and the way that they machine their own actions is fascinating. Starting with a raw steel billet, first step is to machine the barrel thread, then screw it into the CNC machine which then carves it out into a complete action. Same with the bolts. Billet first gets the firing pin hole drilled, then into the CNC referenced from that.

Such a difference from e.g. a Remington action or bolt, cobbled together from multiple pieceparts. Efficient, precise, interchangeable no fitting required.

This what can be done when starting fresh, with no hangover from old fashioned ways of doing things, and employing the best consultants from wherever they come from.

Start here:

Bergara, being so good begs the question.....why can they not make their break barrel (B13) rifle accept interchangeable barrels?
After all, the American company Thompson make their break barrels interchangeable between rifles.
Ken.

 

[Dalua]

But hey, if you want to justify an antiquated, costly and unneeded process, go for it. If your sole reasoning for this is in the name of safety (makes you "feel" safer), than you have also just explained why the UK has lost the majority of it's firearms rights. Gutless, pandering, stuffy, often times wealthy, air heads that babble on about safety while driving their sport in to the ground, pricing the younger generations out of ever carrying on the traditions, all while justifying giving up their rights in the process (for the safety of the whole).

It's logic like yours that paves the way to hell...and the demise of the sports in the UK.

I've no dog in this proof-related scrap, but I think it's worth pointing out that the progressive impairment of firearms-related rights in the UK has nothing to do with the practice and/or laws of proof, which seem to predate any serious attempts at restricting firearms by several hundred years.

Your analysis of the origins our undeniable firearms control problems, and conflation of those with the utility of mandatory firearms proof, seem to me a long way off the mark.

 

[gixer1]

I can re-crown, re-fit, screw cut & shorten a barrel for £50 on my 1970’s myford. It’ll shoot like ****...but you get what you pay for.
DG

See your Myford and raise you a Dremel, bench vice and mole grips and a hacksaw....£15!

 

[gixer1]

I have never had anything proofed myself - however, one of the clear memories in most US gunshots is they usually have a stand on the wall with a blown up rifle as a show piece...maybe that speaks volumes! (Ok, most are double dunt muzzle loaders but still!)