Re-barreling UK

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Or the gunsmithing industry migrates to, or embraces CNC machining, thereby reducing tlhe cost per barrel.

But yes, manual machining is fast becoming a lost art.

Barrels being what they are dont lend them self to cnc machining that well, also it being a specific machine for cold hammer forging or button rifling (rotary broaching) .

A specialist cnc machine would cost 500k+ putting it out of the price bracket for most manufacturers.

On top of this you still require qc and hand finishing such as polishing and lapping


It's OK making a high volume but if the demand isn't there then the expenditure of the business makes no sense. It would drive the price up rather than bring it down

Rifle building and making in the uk/ Europe is very much a cottage industry.

One gun shop in texas sold more savage rifles in 1 month than the whole of Europe in a year. So what makes sense your end dosent over here unfortunately.

The great manufacting days of the UK or gone. Skill loss and higher wages lack off outlets to sell products.

Re barrelling will always be expensive here due to this.

What we do have is a bunch of superb smiths as a result.

 

[MarinePMI]

Barrels being what they are dont lend them self to cnc machining that well, also it being a specific machine for cold hammer forging or button rifling (rotary broaching) .

A specialist cnc machine would cost 500k+ putting it out of the price bracket for most manufacturers.

On top of this you still require qc and hand finishing such as polishing and lapping


It's OK making a high volume but if the demand isn't there then the expenditure of the business makes no sense. It would drive the price up rather than bring it down

Rifle building and making in the uk/ Europe is very much a cottage industry.

One gun shop in texas sold more savage rifles in 1 month than the whole of Europe in a year. So what makes sense your end dosent over here unfortunately.

The great manufacting days of the UK or gone. Skill loss and higher wages lack off outlets to sell products.

Re barrelling will always be expensive here due to this.

What we do have is a bunch of superb smiths as a result.

Perhaps, if you're only making rifle barrels. Many CNC barrel makers (chamber, countour and finish, not blank manufacturing) do other things besides just barrels. Many make auto parts and government/military parts that have nothing to do with guns, and have everything to do with machining.

I suspect the issue isn't volume per se, it is mindset. In the UK people tend to fill a niche, and stay there. The life long bar maid, waiter, mechanic, gardener, etc. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does introduce a certain type of myopia, culturally speaking, that leads to a gunsmith ONLY gunsmithing, when CNC allows you to gunsmith more efficiently while also making other things outside of the gun market.

<shrug> I see no reason, business or market wise, that would impede someone moving yo CNC chambered barrels, save having change HOW their business model worked.

Technology is a market of efficiencies. Diversify to take advantage of those efficiencies or die.

Anyways, I'm off to work now (testing a new thermal weapon sight; woot woot!), I'll log back in later to see the churn.

 

[cjm1066]

How much does proof add to the cost of a new firearm, in % terms very little?

 

[MarinePMI]

How much does proof add to the cost of a new firearm, in % terms very little?

That's the challenge with institutionally required things; it's hard to quantify and compare to an unknown. Proof fees aside, there's time, shipping, paperwork and other administrivia that make it hard to really give a concise answer (I suspect).

That being said, I doubt that the huge cost difference between US prices and UK prices is just because of low volume and shipping. Whenever the government gets involved, the cost inevitably increases due to bureaucracy, which then introduces the "Subway Sandwich making line" that is prone to complete stoppage, when the only person that does the cheese is on holiday/has to ****.

 

[Sharpie]

Few months back I asked Bergara (email) if barrels were interchangeable. (Already knew they weren’t)
Their reply was headspace issues made it unsafe to swap barrels a.n they had no plans to change anything in the future.

You did say: ‘They are efficient, precise, interchangeable no fitting required’. What were you referring to?
Ken.

Bergara used to make the Apex. Or CVA Apex as marketed in some territories. It was a switch barrel, visually identical to the current BA13.

I don't know why they discontinued it, around 2017.

My comment was about how they expect e.g. the B14 barrels to thread straight onto the receivers and headspace correctly. No individual fitting, no clunky barrel nut. You can watch them doing it in one of their videos. No doubt there may sometimes be an outlier that has to go back for rework before it gauges correctly, as simple as by having a selection of different bolt lengths to choose from, my speculation, but it would be one way to do it in production, without any need for rework.


but by and large it seems that they expect them to mostly just fit correctly.

 

[Sonicdmb73]

Alot of quals now just mean your profficent and understand it.

I can do the work but not with the fitness, that comes with time and intimate understanding of the machine your on I'm sure you would agree.

Problem is most colleges teach the basics on manual but lean more to cnc as that is the industry standard now. So manual machining apart from the hobbyist is becoming a lost skill.

Part of why re barrelling a rifle isn't cheap. Fewer people with more demand of a specialist skill.

One of the reasons My Brother in laws Cousin who could of taken on the family firm. Didn't bother, they just couldn't find manual turners and millers etc. They were making jigs amongst other things for the likes of Rolls Royce.

Perhaps, if you're only making rifle barrels. Many CNC barrel makers (chamber, countour and finish, not blank manufacturing) do other things besides just barrels. Many make auto parts and government/military parts that have nothing to do with guns, and have everything to do with machining.

I suspect the issue isn't volume per se, it is mindset. In the UK people tend to fill a niche, and stay there. The life long bar maid, waiter, mechanic, gardener, etc. There's nothing wrong with that, but it does introduce a certain type of myopia, culturally speaking, that leads to a gunsmith ONLY gunsmithing, when CNC allows you to gunsmith more efficiently while also making other things outside of the gun market.

<shrug> I see no reason, business or market wise, that would impede someone moving yo CNC chambered barrels, save having change HOW their business model worked.

Technology is a market of efficiencies. Diversify to take advantage of those efficiencies or die.

Anyways, I'm off to work now (testing a new thermal weapon sight; woot woot!), I'll log back in later to see the churn.

The other problem with firms doing such work id the requirements for a RFD. Many just would not be granted one, be it location, security or even who they employ. It is not straight forward due to the law, you can't just drop onto making barrels when you have finished all those ball valves.

How much does proof add to the cost of a new firearm, in % terms very little?

To the best of my knowledge for a single item posted to and from the Proof House around £100+. There is a discount for a number six iirc then further discounts the more you send. I believe there was a shipping container of Sportsmangun's shotguns in when my rifle went.

 

[Sharpie]

So, you’ve never rebarreled a rifle, have you?

No, and never claimed to have.

But I absolutely could if I had to, have the training and skills to do it, but why would I not use a specialist, if I ever need to go down that route.

If you just want to indulge in willy waving, take it to pm, and be absolutely assured that my willy is much bigger than yours, and in much more interesting fields (apologies to the 'smiths) than just working on rifles. Where I absolutely defer to the good ones. I don't expect or have the time to learn their nuances for the occasional times that I call on theirs skills. And neither would I expect them to be able to contribute much in my line of work, with some honourable exceptions who were trained and had careers in these fields before specialising.

 

[kenbro]

Bergara used to make the Apex. Or CVA Apex as marketed in some territories. It was a switch barrel, visually identical to the current BA13.

I don't know why they discontinued it, around 2017.

My comment was about how they expect e.g. the B14 barrels to thread straight onto the receivers and headspace correctly. No individual fitting, no clunky barrel nut. You can watch them doing it in one of their videos. No doubt there may sometimes be an outlier that has to go back for rework before it gauges correctly, as simple as by having a selection of different bolt lengths to choose from, my speculation, but it would be one way to do it in production, without any need for rework.


but by and large it seems that they expect them to mostly just fit correctly.

Still can’t understand why they can’t turn out break barrels that interchange with headspace probs.
Cheers,Ken.

 

[MarinePMI]

No, and never claimed to have.

But I absolutely could if I had to, have the training and skills to do it, but why would I not use a specialist, if I ever need to go down that route.

If you just want to indulge in willy waving, take it to pm, and be absolutely assured that my willy is much bigger than yours, and in much more interesting fields (apologies to the 'smiths) than just working on rifles. Where I absolutely defer to the good ones. I don't expect or have the time to learn their nuances for the occasional times that I call on theirs skills. And neither would I expect them to be able to contribute much in my line of work, with some honourable exceptions who were trained and had careers in these fields before specialising.

So you admit to never having rebarreled a rifle, and profess to have the knowledge to speak on the matter of why proofing is necessary (aside from law)? Very interesting.

BTW, I think Kenbro asked you a question twice as well...

 

[Sharpie]

Still can’t understand why they can’t turn out break barrels that interchange with headspace probs.
Cheers,Ken.

As I said, they can, and did, and doubtless could do so again, but no longer choose to do so. Officially.

 

[Sharpie]

So you admit to never having rebarreled a rifle, and profess to have the knowledge to speak on the matter of why proofing is necessary (aside from law)? Very interesting.

BTW, I think Kenbro asked you a question twice as well...

Ah, so it seems that I am getting under your skin, as promised, but honestly you make it so easy and I am bored. Not that I am proud of it. Please cease and desist, let it ly.



Fwiw Kenbro has asked the same question twice, and I have given him the same answer twice, which is excusable given the amount of noise you have generated, nobody should have to be expected to wade through that cr@p and sift out the wheat from the chaff. And I am happy to oblige him.

But I see no reason why you should bring this up, other than because amongst your other character defects you are obviously a stirrer, or even a troll. Haven't you got anything better and productive to do with your time or is your life so sad that you have nothing better to do than splurge your brains out from behind the comfort of your keyboard ?

This thread is about re-barreling services in the UK. Since you have nothing to contribute here except negativity and ignorance, maybe best you don't continue.

Bye bye. But, I bet you just cannot resist. This is my last word to you.

 

[Dr. Strangelove]

Ah, so it seems that I am getting under your skin, as promised, but honestly you make it so easy and I am bored. Not that I am proud of it. Please cease and desist, let it ly.

I highly doubt you are getting under MarinePMI’s skin. But, given what he’ll have done in his career (not casting aspersions on yours, mind, but putting two and two together he’ll have spent a fair bit of time overseas in the last ~20 years) I don’t think he needs anyone to defend him!

I also see no issue with Americans not owning passports. From Alaska to Hawaii on a driving licence; why would you need one?!

Super off topic...

Anyway, I doubt the law will change any time soon as I guess it’ll require a burden of proof as to being unnecessary. I think it’ll be more hassle than it’s worth for anyone to try and amend/remove the requirement entirely!

 

[MarinePMI]

I highly doubt you are getting under MarinePMI’s skin. But, given what he’ll have done in his career (not casting aspersions on yours, mind, but putting two and two together he’ll have spent a fair bit of time overseas in the last ~20 years) I don’t think he needs anyone to defend him!

I also see no issue with Americans not owning passports. From Alaska to Hawaii on a driving licence; why would you need one?!

Super off topic...

Anyway, I doubt the law will change any time soon as I guess it’ll require a burden of proof as to being unnecessary. I think it’ll be more hassle than it’s worth for anyone to try and amend/remove the requirement entirely!

True. Honestly, as some have gotten PM's, this has been about the proofing issue...and trolling Sharpie a bit, so as for him to reveal how much he's talking out his ass, with no experience in the subject other than what he has researched.

There will always be the blustery full of wind types...but sometimes it's fun to watch them have melt downs, going on about how the colonies were forgotten, waving willies, and other nonsensical bull****.

Lol...Fudds are what we call them. "Sharpie the Fudd" It does have a ring of truth to it...

 

[Sharpie]

Thank god we have UK proof ! I say ! Just wish we didn't have cip rules on shotgun ammo because much of it isn't relivent or that practical in the days on non toxic, its holding us back !

I think that the shotgun ammo problem with non toxic is undergoing serious study within CIP, but that will take time and has all sorts of ramifications. The Danes don't seem to have much problem with the better loads, which they have been using for many years, being one of the first to make it pretty much compulsory many years ago.

But AFAIK Denmark is not signed up to CIP. Nor does it seem to have anything like a system of proofing. So, go figure.

 

[finnbear270]

Thought I could hear the approach of ammunition boots coming along the corridors for a mo' .

 

[Bowland blades]

I think that the shotgun ammo problem with non toxic is undergoing serious study within CIP, but that will take time and has all sorts of ramifications. The Danes don't seem to have much problem with the better loads, which they have been using for many years, being one of the first to make it pretty much compulsory many years ago.

But AFAIK Denmark is not signed up to CIP. Nor does it seem to have anything like a system of proofing. So, go figure.

Things are changing at proof, they now except some old pre steel magnums for steel proof without material changes ! Guess what they are passing when in good condition no vast surprise really

 

[Bowland blades]

Alot of quals now just mean your profficent and understand it.

I can do the work but not with the fitness, that comes with time and intimate understanding of the machine your on I'm sure you would agree.

Problem is most colleges teach the basics on manual but lean more to cnc as that is the industry standard now. So manual machining apart from the hobbyist is becoming a lost skill.

Part of why re barrelling a rifle isn't cheap. Fewer people with more demand of a specialist skill.

Yes pretty true ! I did my first year in the machine shop at 16 , moved into fabrication / welding for my time , worked on machine shop protects also though and actually trade today blacksmith and of course cutler .
There are still young guys working on one off jobs and manual machines all over the nation . Big firms ? Forget it nobody really knows more than thier nit of the job in those places today ( a massive shame but there has been a big increase in specialism to the point of insanity as a nation ! Great for some employers though if you don't have very transferable skills )

 

[jb1]

We have choices in this country to either have a shot out barrel replaced or not, or choose a wildcat yes we could buy a brand new off the shelf rifle, but we may just like the choice of having a superior barrel ??? whatever we choose the gunsmith does the work sends it to the proof house, and we pay for the service.
I get my shoes resoled because i dont buy cheap shoes and i like the look of them, thats my choice.
Is it wrong ???
you know what ??? i couldnt give a monkeys.

Something for the kids to play in.

 

[welshwarrior]

There will always be the blustery full of wind types...but sometimes it's fun to watch them have melt downs, going on about how the colonies were forgotten, waving willies, and other nonsensical bull****.

Lol...Fudds are what we call them. "Sharpie the Fudd" It does have a ring of truth to it...

I have one for you. I was involved with some guns from the US going to proof. Now a fair few where bought from a well know and respected US company if not sent to us they would as you point out just be sold in the US and been ‘ ‘safe’ to use with no proof test.

Now because they came to GB they where all sent to proof unfortunately a fair few failed proof before firing at the gauging stage incorrect chamber sizes head space etc.

So what failed a major US manufactures QC (I won’t name them) what caught the failed the proof test saving potential issues or injury.

 

[User00040]

I have one for you. I was involved with some guns from the US going to proof. Now a fair few where bought from a well know and respected US company if not sent to us they would as you point out just be sold in the US and been ‘ ‘safe’ to use with no proof test.

Now because they came to GB they where all sent to proof unfortunately a fair few failed proof before firing at the gauging stage incorrect chamber sizes head space etc.

So what failed a major US manufactures QC (I won’t name them) what caught the failed the proof test saving potential issues or injury.

I have a Sako with London proof marks which was clearly short-chambered (now rectified), which had been reamed from 222 to 223. Would not close on 6 variations of factory 223, only one that would chamber was some undersized Wolf ammo meant for AR's...



Without the details what's the point in discussing things? There is a gunsmith up North who has made rifles for Royals and will talk your ear off about proofing standards if you let him!

The USA is where law suits and life insurance reign supreme so when a manufacturer slips up it could be the end of them. Look at 'Big Green' and their trigger recall...