Re-barreling UK

[Bowland blades]

I just had my sako rebarreled with a sasoon stainless by Dave Wilde (ta valkerie rifles ) these are an excellent barrel hand lapped and a reasonable amount faster than others .
As a engineer myself let me explain costs
Dave has a number of lathes , milling machines a lovely workshop on an industrial estate. Linked to ARV response. There has to be 2 k a month in that alone then we have tge thing that good engineers are more than another 2 k a month ! So before we talk of driving from Rotherham to Birmingham to deliver and collect each weeks work plus dealing with loads of dreamers who ain't ever going to shell out for the work .
Basically its not an expensive hobby its a job and one with much risk and cost
Oh and its not 700-1000 to get a good man to rebarrel its quite a bit more , beware of dealing with the cheapest bidder and remember 4 k a month into the business is more a break even for these guys not a get rich quick exercise!
Try getting a garage to work on your car for less than £60 per hour and most mechanics today are little more than new part fitters

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

Just look at the videos on YouTube, the amount of shotguns and ar15's you see being blown up is unreal!

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

I just had my sako rebarreled with a sasoon stainless by Dave Wilde (ta valkerie rifles ) these are an excellent barrel hand lapped and a reasonable amount faster than others .
As a engineer myself let me explain costs
Dave has a number of lathes , milling machines a lovely workshop on an industrial estate. Linked to ARV response. There has to be 2 k a month in that alone then we have tge thing that good engineers are more than another 2 k a month ! So before we talk of driving from Rotherham to Birmingham to deliver and collect each weeks work plus dealing with loads of dreamers who ain't ever going to shell out for the work .
Basically its not an expensive hobby its a job and one with much risk and cost
Oh and its not 700-1000 to get a good man to rebarrel its quite a bit more , beware of dealing with the cheapest bidder and remember 4 k a month into the business is more a break even for these guys not a get rich quick exercise!
Try getting a garage to work on your car for less than £60 per hour and most mechanics today are little more than new part fitters

Agreed,
That's not taking into account the original cost of the tooling, a good basic modern lathe starts about 6 grand without the tooling. Same with milling machines

And most people opt for DCR or a full cnc which bumps the price up alot!

Not to mention the skills involved, it's not a case of banging it in a 3 jaw and getting on with it. The skills take along time to learn and develop.

 

[Sharpie]

Bergara, being so good begs the question.....why can they not make their break barrel (B13) rifle accept interchangeable barrels?
After all, the American company Thompson make their break barrels interchangeable between rifles.
Ken.

Actually they can, and did, I forget the model name, but it was a B13 that was made to interchange barrels perfectly.

Since deprecated, probably just didn't get much market traction and I guess the additional cost of making absolutely sure that all were perfectly interchangeable might have been an obstacle to selling what is a very inexpensive, but excellent rifle. And I suppose that the action itself would have had to be proofed for the heaviest calibre available, even if it was just sold as a .222.

Which is another bit of Spanish oddity, .223/5.56 is still not allowed in Spain whereas even France relaxed their own ban on military chamberings some years ago

That said, I would be very surprised indeed if all B13 barrels were not actually perfectly interchangeable, it would be quite impractical to make a rifle at this price point that required any sort of hand fitting. Hells bells, the whole thing costs less than almost any barrel blank, or even the roughest cheapest Turkish shotgun.

 

[Sharpie]

Sassen took over the machinery and key staff when Border barrels shut up shop. Buttoned and cut rifling and by most accounts just as good as they ever were.

RPA are now making their own barrels by buttoning, I think they also took on some ex-Border barrels equipment but don't quote me on that, I think I still have an invite for a factory tour, which I hope to take up one day.

RPA's reputation is of course, stellar.

They also offer what seems to be a very reasonably priced rebarreling service, I think their 'smith is an active member here.

As is another chap working for Kynamco making their exotic ammo from the days of Empire, but brought into the modern age, they have the pressure lab stuff and an impressive underground range, which you may also hire to do your load development and accuracy testing in controlled conditions rather than the usual muddy field with improvised rest.

Of course the final product gets sent to Birmingham for their seal of approval and the CIP necessities.

Then we have Armalon, about whom I know little, other than that they bought the Parker Hale hammer forging plant, and after several years relocating it and putting it back into service are bashing out barrels again.If they are to the same standard as original Parker Hales they will be good.

Then there are GB barrels, ex Border, who bought one of the Pratt&Whitney cut rifling machines and lovingly refurbished it. I think they have an arrangement with Sassen to supply gun drilled blanks, which they can't do themselves.

Geoffrey Kolbe now specialises in making chamber reamers, standard and bespoke as well as other precision tooling, providing a service that say the USA suppliers can't match, and perhaps might even be superior ? I daresay if you blunt one of his reamers he might be able to sharpen it up again for you too.

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.

 

[MarinePMI]

Lol! Continue to believe proofing is required, by all means...I mean, it always been done that way, therefore it must have some sensible reasoning behind it.

 

[MarinePMI]

Sassen took over the machinery and key staff when Border barrels shut up shop. Buttoned and cut rifling and by most accounts just as good as they ever were.

RPA are now making their own barrels by buttoning, I think they also took on some ex-Border barrels equipment but don't quote me on that, I think I still have an invite for a factory tour, which I hope to take up one day.

RPA's reputation is of course, stellar.

They also offer what seems to be a very reasonably priced rebarreling service, I think their 'smith is an active member here.

As is another chap working for Kynamco making their exotic ammo from the days of Empire, but brought into the modern age, they have the pressure lab stuff and an impressive underground range, which you may also hire to do your load development and accuracy testing in controlled conditions rather than the usual muddy field with improvised rest.

Of course the final product gets sent to Birmingham for their seal of approval and the CIP necessities.

Then we have Armalon, about whom I know little, other than that they bought the Parker Hale hammer forging plant, and after several years relocating it and putting it back into service are bashing out barrels again.If they are to the same standard as original Parker Hales they will be good.

Then there are GB barrels, ex Border, who bought one of the Pratt&Whitney cut rifling machines and lovingly refurbished it. I think they have an arrangement with Sassen to supply gun drilled blanks, which they can't do themselves.

Geoffrey Kolbe now specialises in making chamber reamers, standard and bespoke as well as other precision tooling, providing a service that say the USA suppliers can't match, and perhaps might even be superior ? I daresay if you blunt one of his reamers he might be able to sharpen it up again for you too.

Web Hosting, Reseller Hosting & Domain Names from Heart Internet

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www.bbt.scot

.

Out of curiosity, how many rifles have you rebarreled?

I mean, since you brought up being educated....

 

[Dalua]

Lol! Continue to believe proofing is required, by all means...I mean, it always been done that way, therefore it must have some sensible reasoning behind it.

You speak as if you have access to some remarkable truth that has escaped us all over here somehow. The currently inescapable fact is that proofing is required by law, whether you believe in it or not.
Personally my view is that there's good and bad in proofing, and the way it's administered - but that either way, none of the challenges we face in the UK with respect to ongoing firearms ownership has, or ever has had, anything to do with mandatory proof.

It is therefore simply not a thing to get excited about: and if it were happening in a little country far, far away from were I lived I would simply ignore it out of sheer politeness.

 

[Sharpie]

Lol! Continue to believe proofing is required, by all means...I mean, it always been done that way, therefore it must have some sensible reasoning behind it.

View attachment 191674

P**s off. If we hadn't lost interest you'd still be a British colony, or maybe a French one, or maybe in the Commonwealth.

And possibly have inherited something like our gun proof system.

Rant all you like from your position of ignorance, but learn to accept that other nations do things differently, sure there is a great deal of history behind it (something rather lacking in the USA and a lot of it discreditable), but it has also evolved and continues to do so.

We, generally, don't tell you how to live your lives, so, please stop trying to tell us how we should ours. Not many of you even own a passport nor have any interest in the wider world, however the educated, sophisticated, well travelled ones who I am fortunate to know, work with, socialise with, are some of the best people I know.

Sadly, on current impressions, you do not fall into that category, actually I consider you an embarrassment to your good nation, thankfully you seem to be a unique case here on this UK forum.

Any student of history knows that all Empires decline and fall, and from the outside (not inside your echo chamber) it is beginning to seem that the USA empire may be the shortest lived yet. Give it ten more years before reviewing the situation.

Now please just shut up and stop polluting this useful thread with your bo**ocks, maybe take some time out for reflection, get your meds adjusted or try going dry for a week or two.

Respectfully yours.

 

[Ronin]

@MarinePM1

As a rifle builder for the last 14 yrs in the UK I do hear what your saying

But

We have to comply with UK law so Proofing is here to stay

Regardless of the arguments for and against

It’s what we have to deal with so we comply and get on with it

Some people’s comments here show they clearly have no comprehension of the dangers involved or liabilities if things go wrong

Nothing rebarrelled goes to a customer from my workshop without being proofed first

 

[MarinePMI]

@MarinePM1

As a rifle builder for the last 14 yrs in the UK I do hear what your saying

But

We have to comply with UK law so Proofing is here to stay

Regardless of the arguments for and against

It’s what we have to deal with so we comply and get on with it

Some people’s comments here show they clearly have no comprehension of the dangers involved or liabilities if things go wrong

Nothing rebarrelled goes to a customer from my workshop without being proofed first

Oh, I understand the requirements, and the liabilities within the UK market.

My comment was more about the realistic need these days, liability insurance requirements not withstanding.

 

[Bowland blades]

Agreed,
That's not taking into account the original cost of the tooling, a good basic modern lathe starts about 6 grand without the tooling. Same with milling machines

And most people opt for DCR or a full cnc which bumps the price up alot!

Not to mention the skills involved, it's not a case of banging it in a 3 jaw and getting on with it. The skills take along time to learn and develop.

I assume most are apprenticeship trained and industry experienced but yes I know many are not and this latter group also includes some of the best of course . 3 jaw chuck in bang on concentric to bore - not lol !

 

[MarinePMI]

P**s off. If we hadn't lost interest you'd still be a British colony, or maybe a French one, or maybe in the Commonwealth.

And possibly have inherited something like our gun proof system.

Rant all you like from your position of ignorance, but learn to accept that other nations do things differently, sure there is a great deal of history behind it (something rather lacking in the USA and a lot of it discreditable), but it has also evolved and continues to do so.

We, generally, don't tell you how to live your lives, so, please stop trying to tell us how we should ours. Not many of you even own a passport nor have any interest in the wider world, however the educated, sophisticated, well travelled ones who I am fortunate to know, work with, socialise with, are some of the best people I know.

Sadly, on current impressions, you do not fall into that category, actually I consider you an embarrassment to your good nation, thankfully you seem to be a unique case here on this UK forum.

Any student of history knows that all Empires decline and fall, and from the outside (not inside your echo chamber) it is beginning to seem that the USA empire may be the shortest lived yet. Give it ten more years before reviewing the situation.

Now please just shut up and stop polluting this useful thread with your bo**ocks, maybe take some time out for reflection, get your meds adjusted or try going dry for a week or two.

Respectfully yours.

So, you’ve never rebarreled a rifle, have you?

 

[Bowland blades]

@MarinePM1

As a rifle builder for the last 14 yrs in the UK I do hear what your saying

But

We have to comply with UK law so Proofing is here to stay

Regardless of the arguments for and against

It’s what we have to deal with so we comply and get on with it

Some people’s comments here show they clearly have no comprehension of the dangers involved or liabilities if things go wrong

Nothing rebarrelled goes to a customer from my workshop without being proofed first

Thank god we have UK proof ! I say ! Just wish we didn't have cip rules on shotgun ammo because much of it isn't relivent or that practical in the days on non toxic, its holding us back !

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

I assume most are apprenticeship trained and industry experienced but yes I know many are not and this latter group also includes some of the best of course . 3 jaw chuck in bang on concentric to bore - not lol !

Ive got quals from college as part of the bigger course, took me 2 years to learn the craft of hand fitting, milling and turning.
The amount that went in the scrap bin was unreal. I'm not an accomplished machinest by any means and respect people that do it for that reason .

Best one I've seen is a bloke not knowing how to use a surface grinder, after saying he could. didn't know the grinding bed was a mag clamp to hold the piece. Turned into the world's fastest v block after getting launched across the shop

 

[Bowland blades]

Ive got quals from college as part of the bigger course, took me 2 years to learn the craft of hand fitting, milling and turning.
The amount that went in the scrap bin was unreal. I'm not an accomplished machinest by any means and respect people that do it for that reason .

Best one I've seen is a bloke not knowing how to use a surface grinder, after saying he could. didn't know the grinding bed was a mag clamp to hold the piece. Turned into the world's fastest v block after getting launched across the shop

When I started there was actually a clapper box in the shop getting used , way more than 2 years before you got to call yourself fully skilled though

 

[Stalker-of-the-deer]

When I started there was actually a clapper box in the shop getting used , way more than 2 years before you got to call yourself fully skilled though

Alot of quals now just mean your profficent and understand it.

I can do the work but not with the fitness, that comes with time and intimate understanding of the machine your on I'm sure you would agree.

Problem is most colleges teach the basics on manual but lean more to cnc as that is the industry standard now. So manual machining apart from the hobbyist is becoming a lost skill.

Part of why re barrelling a rifle isn't cheap. Fewer people with more demand of a specialist skill.

 

[MarinePMI]

Alot of quals now just mean your profficent and understand it.

I can do the work but not with the fitness, that comes with time and intimate understanding of the machine your on I'm sure you would agree.

Problem is most colleges teach the basics on manual but lean more to cnc as that is the industry standard now. So manual machining apart from the hobbyist is becoming a lost skill.

Part of why re barrelling a rifle isn't cheap. Fewer people with more demand of a specialist skill.

Or the gunsmithing industry migrates to, or embraces CNC machining, thereby reducing the cost per barrel.

But yes, manual machining is fast becoming a lost art.

 

[kenbro]

Actually they can, and did, I forget the model name, but it was a B13 that was made to interchange barrels perfectly.

Since deprecated, probably just didn't get much market traction and I guess the additional cost of making absolutely sure that all were perfectly interchangeable might have been an obstacle to selling what is a very inexpensive, but excellent rifle. And I suppose that the action itself would have had to be proofed for the heaviest calibre available, even if it was just sold as a .222.

Which is another bit of Spanish oddity, .223/5.56 is still not allowed in Spain whereas even France relaxed their own ban on military chamberings some years ago

That said, I would be very surprised indeed if all B13 barrels were not actually perfectly interchangeable, it would be quite impractical to make a rifle at this price point that required any sort of hand fitting. Hells bells, the whole thing costs less than almost any barrel blank, or even the roughest cheapest Turkish shotgun.

Few months back I asked Bergara (email) if barrels were interchangeable. (Already knew they weren’t)
Their reply was headspace issues made it unsafe to swap barrels a.n they had no plans to change anything in the future.

You did say: ‘They are efficient, precise, interchangeable no fitting required’. What were you referring to?
Ken.

 

[MarinePMI]

Not many of you even own a passport nor have any interest in the wider world, however the educated, sophisticated, well travelled ones who I am fortunate to know, work with, socialise with, are some of the best people I know.

Sadly, on current impressions, you do not fall into that category, actually I consider you an embarrassment to your good nation, thankfully you seem to be a unique case here on this UK forum

Lol. Apparently your ignorance is not restricted to just firearms, since I do travel internationally, speak several languages and have lived in the UK myself. Admittedly, the further away from the M-25, the more I enjoyed it (even when staying at the London County Hall...though they do have an excellent executive gym).

I found most UK people polite (almost to a fault), thoughtful and well spoken.

But there are always those academic types, who like to talk out of their asses, quoting this and that, that they no doubt Googled or researched, but have never actually done. The type that speaks from theory, not experience. Kind of like the airsoft types.. You sir, are that type of dumbass. The blustery, pompous type, that thinks screaming louder, changing argument, and posting videos and figures somehow makes them an authority on a subject of which they have no actual experience.

Smh...a pity, to chirp so loudly about the quality of gold your cage is made.