Hard mouthed

[wag]

I'm very new to deer training dogs and I'd like my new GWP to become a good alrounder I just a little concerned that the dog will at some time become hard mouthed on birds and wildfoul after contact with deer.
Has anyone else had this problem as it may effect which side of training Istart with first.


Thanks in advance Charlie

 

[Paul 600]

My last wire did everything I asked of her with no problems.

 

[jimbo123p]

never play tug. soft mouth is an inherited trade. It is the tightness of the mouth when it carries something. If you thing a dog that can lift an egg undamaged can crunch bone. However playing tug teaches the dog to tighten his/her mouth. Not in the carry but usually in the give.
Jim

 

[Kit]

Athur my wirehaired Vizla. Tracks and holds deer.I play tug of war with a deeskins after the find in training and have done so during his basic training to encourage him to hold the deer.After the find in training he is allowed to carry the skin for a short distance ,then is told to give. The command being "dead". Praise then follows.The dog if you have done the obediance basics, will know the difference between play and the giving of the prey/bird/skin to the boss.
As for hardmouth, he is used as a paid picking up dog on two commercial shoots three times a week during the season,so the ragging or tug of war play causing hard mouth is not something I and many others would subscribe to.
Teach your dog to bring the skin to you and give to you.You are the pack leader.
This is one of the many differences between a trained deer dog and one that just find dead deer.
I would strongly advise that you attend the next NGO or BMH Soc training days there you will meet likeminded people with a variety of dogs at various stages of training
www.muntjactrading.co.uk
Kit

 

[stone]

I'm very new to deer training dogs and I'd like my new GWP to become a good alrounder I just a little concerned that the dog will at some time become hard mouthed on birds and wildfoul after contact with deer.
Has anyone else had this problem as it may effect which side of training Istart with first.


Thanks in advance Charlie

Charlie
your first thought you need to think about is
What is hard mouthed
once you hav that idea sorted you will know which way to look

most dogs will always be soft mouthed and they soon learn by their own when they need to clench on or when to give it up on command
a dog is deemed hard mouthed when it grabs a little tight when extracting a phessie from heavy cover such as bramble
it has to pull and bite harder just to drag it out or looose it, this is a big consideration
if a dog is hard mouthed it will be from the start including with dummies
and to be honest hard mouth is not an issue if you are not entering a dog into competitions anyway
if it tears it to bits on a retrieve then thats a different matter
but as a rule that I hav seen those bird dogs that hav been used for deer work seem to hav a lot more about them that their owners/trainers
worry less and let the dog work, if it starts to become a little more hard mouthed than you like then it's at that point you can take appropiate measures to stop this being a habit

 

[Tam16]

Charlie
your first thought you need to think about is
What is hard mouthed
once you hav that idea sorted you will know which way to look

most dogs will always be soft mouthed and they soon learn by their own when they need to clench on or when to give it up on command
a dog is deemed hard mouthed when it grabs a little tight when extracting a phessie from heavy cover such as bramble
it has to pull and bite harder just to drag it out or looose it, this is a big consideration
if a dog is hard mouthed it will be from the start including with dummies
and to be honest hard mouth is not an issue if you are not entering a dog into competitions anyway
if it tears it to bits on a retrieve then thats a different matter
but as a rule that I hav seen those bird dogs that hav been used for deer work seem to hav a lot more about them that their owners/trainers
worry less and let the dog work, if it starts to become a little more hard mouthed than you like then it's at that point you can take appropiate measures to stop this being a habit

spot on stone

 

[Dickyboy]

In my experience dogs learn to be hard mouthed when over faced with quarry. A small cocker may struggle to carry a large strong runner and have to hold on tight where as a large dog like a lab wouldn't struggle to hold it. It's the same for whippets with hares. I have a pointer x that smashes foxes but retrieves rabbits live, pheasants etc and sometimes foxes if they don't struggle bit he is big and powerful and he didn't retrieve live game until he was over a year and well developed.

Don't over face him with game that will struggle and he won't learn to kill to make it easy. I have a cocker that was soft mouthed but has learnt to crunch runners. Didn't play tug with her but I do subscribe to it.

 

[Knottaclu]

My family have trained gundogs for four generations, and our experience can be summarised as follows:

Some dogs are born with permanent hard mouths, and these can't be changed.
Some dogs are born with permanent soft mouths and will always have soft mouths regardless of what happens.
The remainder can be trained (with varying degrees of effort needed) to have soft mouths but can require retraining if an event or new situation has caused them to over squeeze.

As a rough rule of thumb, our experience is that the more intelligent and calmer the dog, the less likely it is to be (or become) hard mouthed. Since we are firm believers that increasing training (in variety and frequency) increases intelligence and that dogs shouldn't be rushed into the field, it is relatively easy to turn out a soft mouthed dog.

However, in the past, we have had dogs returned for retraining when they have become hard mouthed and almost invariably, is down to the owner putting the dog to a situation where it has had to either bite something hard (usually foxes or other dogs) or in a new situation where the dog has been left to work out what to do by itself (such as getting into rearing pens).

To answer your question, if your dog has a good mouth then I wouldn't worry too much about it. Give him plenty of supervision and instruction in new situations so that he is confident rather than nervous, and consistently reward appropriate behaviour and correct inappropriate. Keep the variety of the work up so that he doesn't start to get over confident or lazy, and I personally would avoid putting him in situations where he has to bite/squeeze hard - if it happens inadvertently then so be it, but my preference would be to hold at bay and bark until you come up to complete matters.

I don't play tugging and pulling games because I don't like the attitude that can develop in some dogs, but I don't believe that it encourages dogs to be hard mouthed - their mouths are their primary means of experiencing by touch and they are very good at discriminating between the right amount of force for different activities.

Most importantly of all is to enjoy yourself and your dog - if you are having a good time, then he will and therefore be much less likely to over-react.

 

[al4x1]

Charlie its a challenge I've been through it and just about out the other side, my GWP has been good on birds though not overly enthusiastic as a retriever she will do it. Pheasants have been most straight forward, partridges fine but pigeons took a lot of getting her to do properly. Mine isn't hard mouthed per se but where i have had troubles is with runners etc where she will hold them a bit too tight. Its a narrow line between too tight especially when you also want to use them on foxes and deer and mine isn't unacceptable and at 3 she is still learning. Give her a chickens egg and she will run round for ages without breaking it where I think you need to be most careful is on game that is still live and flapping do plenty on very dead game first before letting yours near. I struggled as I was on a small syndicate that had no other dogs and got left sorting out 5 strong running cock birds with a green dog. I should have left it but you live and learn.

 

[carpy]

A question of mouth, tricky one this. I break all the rules when training a reluctant retriever including playing tugging and chasing games and still end up with a soft mouthed dog that doesn't run in . If i do not have to resort to hooligan methods i don't if i do i do. An HPR works just like its name describes... H=hunt the dogs first preference no problem teaching a dog this. P=point the dogs next choice a bit of a 50/50 thing here some point naturally and honestly others need help, R=retrieve in most cases the hpr's least liked discipline. Therefore always teach in reverse order as in RP.... Retrieve first , point second ,hunt last.
Charlie i could go on and on and on ,why not get yourself down to the Norfolk /Suffolk HPR club it might help you on your way.
I am a bit different in the ways i train ,but you will be told so many things by so many people it will make your head spin. Do not rush things take your time, little and often is good and of course nothing succeeds like success.Good luck Charlie..

 

[hamish dick]

What do you want the dog to do with the deer,? my pointer for example points and then he can find a dead deer, which he barks at,
personally i think these dogs are naturally soft enough for bird work as well, its down to training!!!
If it doesnt work it could be just not suited to what you want it to do, They arent all perfect....